NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #46

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

I'm not certain what you are trying to defend here.

Are you arguing that using racist terms because they were unaware can be excused?

Language changes frequently and todays acceptable becomes unacceptable next year.

Has the term in question "become unacceptable" recently?

No.

Calling someone racist because they refer to the local shop by the name it's had for years without being used as an insult is just performative virtue signalling.

Being critical of someone's use of racist terms is not "perfomative virtue signalling", even if they did not intend to use such terms as insults.

It's disappointing to see disparaging words like "performative virtue signalling" being used to describe criticism of using racist terms.

I thought we didn't need to rehash this.

I understand SP's racism is a legally separate issue, but there is no need to defend, excuse or downplay her or other people's use of racist terms.

I’m actually of Indian heritage so perhaps the word paki hits harder. Would it be fine if she said the n word instead? I would still be as upset with anyone defending her from that. Also, to the other poster ‘the Queen’ said it in the joke so that implies some distance from the ‘joke teller’. Really? Let’s use our brain at least a little bit.

just to add, I’m relatively impartial to the debate, leaning on the side of women’s rights and safe spaces for biological women being protected for a number of reasons. I don’t even think the racism should factor into the decision here. But the blatant acceptance and excuses for racism being proliferated on this thread are disgusting and disheartening.

@Jellycatspyjamas The floods in Pakistan started around the same time as the first peak of the covid pandemic. Can you imagine how nursing staff felt at that time knowing they were dealing with patients likely to infect them and their families, with no or inadequate protective equipment, struggling to get food in the shops, more patients that usual and maybe colleagues dying on them. I very much doubt these were the only examples of dark humour in those 2600 pages.

I had to break away at about half 3 but did keep popping back to check updates loosely.

I am glad I came away though, I think I needed a bit of breathing space, I've been a bit anxious about how the panel will view Sandies case now racism has been brought to light but I am holding fast that they're legal professionals and they will see it's irrelevance in this and see that it is simply about single sex provision.

I am really sad to see the massive and important subject of racism being conflated with the use of a few offensive words and the frankly fucking moronic resulting knee-jerk, deeply unintelligent policing of said words as if that sorts it all out.

Racism, the intention of discrimination and oppression on the basis of race or racial characteristics is what is racist, not the words. The words will change their meaning and value in the eye-blink of a generation or less. The intention never changes.

It is the same with the actual topic of this board - the words do not change biological reality no matter how some attempt to police them and change their meaning. We can all see the danger of that, so why are we falling into the trap with racism?

Oops! MN are having a look at my post. I didn't think I said anything controversial.

@Bookery someone's mother was being called racist for calling the local corner shop by a term now deemed unacceptable - nothing to do with the posts in the Benidorm chat.

You mean racist humour. I know exactly how it is to work under pressure, in dangerous circumstances with very vulnerable people. It’s no excuse for racism.

Don't have access to the original post by @extravirginolive so apologies for quoting you @floridacat here as agree with you. But slightly alarmed that olive doesn't seem to realise that Indian people and Pakistani people are from different countries and indeed are countries that generally do not get on well at all. So an Indian person making jokes about Pakistani people could absolutely be being racist. Of course this is a massive generalisation as both countries have very diverse populations, but in general the assumption that Indian and Pakistani people are the same is in itself offensive.

Apologies as OT and have gone down the rabbit hole on racism versus the subject at hand, but I couldn't help but reply on this one.

Pretty sure the many women in prison have done much worse things than Sandie. Should they have no rights because they are despicable people ? Racists, murderers, child abusers?
Should they never be able to raise a complaint about anything, much less be entitled to a man free space? Do they deserve everything they get because they are vile and wicked?
No.
Same goes for Sandie whatever her behaviour may have been.
The TRA may be rubbing their hands with glee but it changes nothing. Doesn't matter if a woman works every weekend in a soup kitchen or goes off to a Tommy Robinson rally. You still need to keep your dicks out of our spaces

@Fauviandelight32 Woah I'm mixed Pakistani which you've clearly missed, I don't think using the term "Pakis" is at all acceptable.

But like I posted to clarify I think the joke was attributing racist terms to the Queen calling up the Pakistani Prime Minister to ask if they want "pakis" back.

I would prefer accuracy and nuance not to be lost here.

Agreed. We don't need to defend racism in order to support Sandie in her case; that's playing into the TRAs hands. All women have a right to single sex spaces.

The mood has changed a lot today.

It’s not just the word though is it? If she had just referred to someone as a paki and that was it maybe, maybe I could see where you’re coming from. But she shared jokes about Britain having enough pa**s, about a certain group ‘flooding’ Britain. Let’s not pretend that it’s just the word.

actually, the more I engage with this thread, the more I see these strawman arguments being brought up and people arguing a lot of, tbh, bullshit. This isn’t the point of this thread, and I don’t think people are engaging in this particular discussion in good faith, so I’ll not expend any more energy on this.

I just can't understand why any of this was allowed as evidence when it's absolutely nothing to do with the case. Yes, she isn't coming across well at all and the jokes and so are absolutely shocking. However is anyone looking at Dr Upton's text messages to see what he's been saying? I think you could go through most people's text messages and show them in a bad light. It's absolutely irrelevant to this.

Can we please stop making excuses for raging racism? Thank you.

@Jellycatspyjamas Point I was trying to make is that there were probably a lot of things being said at that time that we would find offensive, it's a coping mechanism for people under extreme stress. In 30 years it's the only example that Fife have been able to come up with and no evidence of having treated people differently. No complaints of racism from patients.

Still unacceptable to copy such comments, just trying to get you to see the context.

To borrow from the late Queen, today has been a diem horribile. On many levels and in many ways.

Re the racist, bigoted, phobic behaviour- this goes to Sandy’s intent here. She is trying to get Upton out of the changing room because she is transphobic rather than she genuinely wants access to a single sex space. If she is doing that then her claim is unreasonable. And Jane Russel still believes FWR doesn’t apply. So Sandy doesn’t have a right.

The Court can take a view. And also opine on FWS

I’m in a profession where dark humour as a coping mechanism is often used and much needed, and yes during the pandemic I and my colleagues faced high levels of stress and danger - still managed to avoid racism. During the pandemic black and brown nurses were at considerably higher risk of contracting Covid and being more significantly impacted by it. I’m sure they’d have completely understood their white colleagues using racist humour “to cope”.

What’s being a racist got to do with “coping” in a pandemic?

SP is an out and proud Trumpster. This is who she is.

Reflecting on today, at first I thought this was just giving us a real sense of the internal culture of Fife - and that it was hellishly toxic.

At first I thought that the typical strategies of large public bodies that get publicly shamed appeared to have run out of road: If Fife had acknowledged early that they had a part to play in these shambles, they would have taken the usual stance, "We got it wrong. Lessons will be learnt. Yada yada yada..." It'd be over.

Nothing would have changed at all except Sandie would have been quietly paid off and everyone in this sorry saga would be yesterday's archived chip-wrapper. Beth probably would have got a swift promotion so he could use the consultants' loos. Everyone lived dysfunctionally ever after. That's how it goes, no?!

But then came the initially unfathomable shit show, and much mocked, PR stunt of last weekend blaming Sex Matters. Seemingly, senior people who are highly skilled, masters at communicating and influencing, couldn't predict that this wouldn't be persuasive?! Bollocks me thinks.

Fife's "We're simply the victims of a conspiracy" showed absolutely no insight that their own conduct, at least some of it, has prevailed this travesty upon themselves. Seems incongruent somehow that they are fighting so hard when they've always had an exit strategy - albeit a slightly unpalatable one.

Tactic II of the siege mentality demands an onslaught of its workforce. The viciousness of the personal attack in SP is a clear message of "we will bury you". It's a warning to the underlings: we'll bury you too. SP's life, and her family's, is undoubtedly seriously at peril given the racism allegations. Probably will remain so for life.

The SNP are angry at Westminster which halted the determination of the SNP to bring in self-ID. Fife is nothing but the football to kick back. Win Fife, get self-ID back.

Tis all just more politics innit?!

Or I guess SNP is just bitter that JKR did'na vote for them.

Oh boy did I pick the wrong afternoon to take my eye off the threads!

Never mind restoring the Laugh emoji, I need an Utterly Flabberghasted one. And a whole new set of bingo cards.

<dives back in to the previous thread>

I don't follow. She has a right to a SS CR, it's a workplace obligation; how can it be dependent on her reasons for wanting it? It's not a privilege, it's a right.

The racist jokes clearly found an appreciative audience so in that sense she's no worse than anyone who accepted or laughed at them.