NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #46

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

I haven’t read the racist joke (don’t want to). But I am interested that people keep saying that racist comments in the group chat should have been reported to Fife and that Sandy and any others saying “unacceptable thing” should be sacked for them. Is that really true? Isn’t it a private closed group not a nhs group. Surely it is non of the business of your employers what you say in a private conversation. If this was being said in public fair enough. I in no way condone racism (before any one charges in I have a blended family) but I am equally queasy about a big brother world where my employer gets to police and spy on my private conversations. All your employer should be able to own is your performance and how you treat your co workers, customers. Your soul and your opinions are your own.

I have no doubt those jokes are racist. Anyone sharing them or answering with a laughing emoji would have to be comfortable with / used to racism. This is disappointing and damages the gender critical cause. But it's not the point of the case.

This takes me back to my initial expectations of this case:

I expected the CR confrontation would have been messy and dramatic, with SP perhaps having said things she regrets. I was wrong, it was calm and both remained professional.
I expected Fife to have done everything by the book, their defence being that they were following Scottish government TWAW policies. I didn't expect lack of policies, made up allegations and doctored evidence. These to me are the real smoking gun and the national scandal in this case.
I expected SP to be a "difficult" victim, so the case would be explicitly and exclusively about any woman's right to an SSS. In a way I'm glad the focus is back on that rather than on how likeable Sandie might be.

Apart from that...

I can't believe so many adults were dumb enough to send those messages in WhatsApp.

Lindsey's laughing emoji and the lack of censure from the other chat members shows that they were all okay with the racist jokes.

To share details and the full name of a patient is unforgivable. Several times I have been completely vulnerable in the hands of health care professionals because of my physical and mental health issues. To think that I could have my name quoted and my issues made fun of makes my stomach turn. I hope she gets the book thrown at her. You can argue that SP is a racist and theoretically, she might have treated some patients differently because of their ethnicity. But in reality she's had no complaints for racism. On the other hand, Lindsey has absolutely violated patient confidentiality, nothing theoretical about it. Watching her getting snared in her own trap was delicious.

The two morning witnesses colluded to discuss evidence in the break. This tells me everything I need to know about how professional they are and how seriously they take regulations.

The judge hasn't been even handed from day 1 IMO. JR's excessive interruptions have been allowed to continue, DU and MC's filibustering was never tackled, Fife's scandalous, crucial failure to disclose hasn't really been acknowledged let alone punished. It doesn't seem fair and it grates that the judge goes on about time being tight when he has been so ineffectual at tackling faffing and time-wasting.

NC is a fucking wonder and I am more in awe of her every day

... rant over

We’re going to have to wait for tomorrow. There’s nothing to be gained by tearing it to shreds now.

The worst thing about those comments isn’t making gender critical people look bad.

Sandie isn’t ’all GC women’.
Women, regardless of their politics and purity, colour or creed, are entitled to sss.

Isn’t it a private closed group not a nhs group. Surely it is non of the business of your employers what you say in a private conversation.

Do you take the same stance on the Met officers group chat posting incredibly misogynistic stuff?

I find this on many MN threads, but I find it genuinely surprising that, to some, not being racist is described as "perfect" , "virtuous angel", "whiter than white" etc and making racist jokes is considered 'slipping up' or 'letting your hair down'.

I do accept that these jokes aren't always meant maliciously and might not indicate a cruel nature but they're still racist and I can't understand the attitude that it's like a little treat to be able to say racist stuff after a hard day working at being really really good.

Surely it's the bare minimum?

Yes that’s what I gathered too.

In terms of this case Sandys personal views or anyone’s on that group chat are irrelevant

it’s Uptons views that as he believes he’s female he would insist on treating a woman who had asked for a female doctor

its Uptons obsession with being a women and nhs Fifes obsession with the same that could endanger, or at the very least, humiliate female Patients and staff at the hospital

More recently it’s senior members of staff not knowing if they are women or indeed how to sex a baby

These are just a few of the relevant shockers that have come to light in the Sandy Peggy case.

Today was a Fife derail

A successful strategy then. JR will be pleased.

Of course those so-called jokes are not acceptable. However, putting SPs character to one side, it can still be said that she’s deserving of being able to get changed in female only spaces.

And the thing is that just shows their ignorance - that the P word is often used for anyone brown or 'South asian looking'. Could be India, Bangladesh but some people don't differentiate. Everyone's a Pakistani- I doubt they could point it out on a map.
I don't think the N word has ever been used casually as in the N shop-its always been harsh, racist and aggressive. I think I heard my grandad say it once as part of a strange nursery rhyme but that's it.
I can see how it will affect people. But i do still there is a massive difference between an educated young person saying it today, and an older person who used it in the 70's when the TV was full of the same stuff (mind your language?) and just hasn't given it much thought. Prince Phillip was still coming out with bongo bongo crap until not very long ago.
It's not an excuse-just an explanation.
Young people really have no excuse but I do think that despite pp saying 'my mum is 80 and she'd never say this, so there's no excuse, i do
personally give some older people a pass.
Again it's all about intent.

Some of the most openly and unapologetically racist, homophobic people I've ever come across weren't white , and were natives of Egypt and Vietnam. Oh and 'not white' members of my own family. But that's for another thread, another day.

Just catching up with today’s witnesses, like others have said, it’s upsetting and disappointing to see the racism from SP, I’ve previously stopped socialising with people who hold similar views, however it doesn’t change the fact that every single woman should be provided with single sex spaces.

Im also puzzled as to why this evidence was relevant to this case.

If you’re an experienced HCP, and even if you’re not that long qualified, you absolutely, 100% can hold ‘views’ about certain demographics without that ‘seeping’ into your treatment of them. Because we’re grown ups. And have seen a thing or two. I’d suggest a couple of months on an Emergency Dept night shift might be an eye-opener to you, too. ‘All of humanity’, etc.

Maybe you cannot compartmentalise your thoughts, maybe you have emotional disregulation, but be assured, the vast, vast majority of HCP can, and, if you want purity of mind, your local hospital would be tumbleweed.

It may be that it isn't being brought in to defend Fife, it's just to scare off anyone else who's thinking of giving evidence or bringing a case.

Just going totally off-topic, I've been wracking my brains for ages as I thought that I remembered something about Fife.

Totally off-topic, but there is a small town just to the north of where this all took place in Victoria Hospital called Newburgh, on the banks of the River Tay.

Every year at Christmas they get school children to produce a design that is then made into a florescent street light.

There was a report from the BBC last Christmas here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/cj907n92nv1o

They really do seem to be very cute

I'm a bit shocked by reading so many posters minimising the use of the P word. It has been extremely offensive for many decades, and older people are likely to be the ones most acutely aware why. They will have seen news coverage in the 70s of the people who yelled the term at the victims of their bovver boot attacks.

I'm over 60 and neither of my parents would have used the word, nor would my grandmother who died in her nineties.

About 25 years ago I remember one (middle class) woman in my local mother and baby group referring to a nearby shop as the 'P shop'. It was as unacceptable then as it is now, and it stayed with me so strongly that it is literally the only thing I can remember about her now.

I had an elderly mother in law from fife who was the most openly, unashamedly racist person I ever met. That was my first introduction to ‘p… shops’.i was shocked at that but that was just the tip of the iceberg. There is no excuse for racism in any context.

Yes she was also very posh and superior to everyone.

I am horrendously disappointed today.

Given the appalling record for women of colour in healthcare settings, I doubt very much that all practitioners are setting aside their personal views. I too am in a profession that sees all of humanity, mostly at their worst, and being aware of your own prejudices matters, because thinking they have no impact whatsoever creates complacency.

"P*ki" has been contemptuous and racist for at least 60 years that I can remember. The only difference is that racism was more popular in those days.

I have very kindly been gifted a month pass to Michael Foran - thank you I may be gone for some time now! 😁

While an NHS nurse holding deeply offensive negative views about trans people or transness in general doesn't seem to generate much concern, it seems that the disgusting racism that goes hand in hand with it does.

It's always interesting to see who doubles down or starts with the apologia in such situations.

I am not condoning the racist jokes in anyway. They were nasty. Does anyone remember the film 1999 film East is East?

I think Peggie's argument is that she doesn't want Upton there because Upton is a man, not because Upton is a trans woman.
They aren't the same things.
She can be shown to have racist opinions, they made inroads on that today, but the case re her being transphobic wasn't nearly as cut and dry and heavily reliant on the word freak.
In fact by the end of Naomi's cross somehow L and Gill, in their little chat, seemed to fit that bill more accurately than SP. Go figure!
I wonder is L reporting Gill for the comments. 😮

While an NHS nurse holding deeply offensive negative views about trans people or transness in general doesn't seem to generate much concern

If you're talking about SP, and 'negative views' being 'wanting to get changed in a female-only space', then I'd say being suspended from your job is 'generating much concern', wouldn't you? Or are you being dishonest again?

You've said some shocking things on MN over the years, so it's probably not a great idea to point to 4 posts in case your 2600 get dragged up....

With all the character assassination going on today just a reminder that Sandie donated the full £30K + (I’ve forgotten the exact amount) raised for her via crowdfunding to charity.
I wonder how many of her backstabbing colleagues would do the same.

DU also had a crowdfund started for him which raised considerably less. He kept 50% for personal use.