NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #46

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

Tbh, yes. I mentioned gallows humour, it's not the same, you're right.

I think it's a 'yes, and' - yes, they were racist posts, AND she's still worthy of the right to single sex spaces. Sex Matters had the tone correct, they got that out online straight away and it's important that they did.

I'm of mixed heritage myself (African) but sure, the assumption is that we're all just old white Terfs. I don't particularly enjoy being lectured by people that have zero experience but let them speak .

NC condemned this and has successfully shown the two accusers as malicious.

the judge commented that these witnesses were a side issue.

hopefully she will recover from the derail of this complainants claims.of being harassed and discriminated against.

Am flouncing off as pertinent as this debate is, it is not for me of any value on this thread.

until tomorrows proceedings….

This ⬆️ is excellent.

👆🏻

Yes I agree the language is racist @Tandora but I just corrected out that in the joke it's the Queen making the racist comments. Edit in the sense of using the term "Pakis"

Interruptaron detected. Again.

@Bookery "Some people might use racist terms without malice. That doesn't change the racist nature of those terms."

Those terms have not always been termed racist. Language changes frequently and todays acceptable becomes unacceptable next year. But the intent of the person who has used those terms for years doesnt necessarily change. Calling someone racist because they refer to the local shop by the name it's had for years without being used as an insult is just performative virtue signalling.

Sandie Peggie ‘wasn’t the only one’ worried about trans doctor

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/3c0a66a66b6bb79f

@Extravirginolive

"What about the wealthy Indian HR Director friend of mine. He says it."

This is a "whatabout" -istic example.

There are some non-white people who use racist terms; they are also subject to criticism, and intra-community controversy in certain cases.

Everyone's going to get distracted talking about her character but it's irrelevant to what's happened at Fife this last year.
100%%%

Disappointed in The Times

https://www.thetimes.com/article/f6dc43c8-ff02-4d54-b863-cbaf788ee02a?shareToken=06780fbd1adc771b1a3c3550644da37e

After being called as a witness at an ET and the having all my emails, texts and WhatsApp messages about the individual being requested for their appeal I now have disappearing messages on chats with close colleagues where I’m probably calling my boss a cunt.

People can be lured into bravado in group chats but not rascist language unless it’s in their psyche.

Still doesn’t mean they’re not entitled to SSS.

On with Michael Foran here - he made an interesting observation- Lindsay Nicholl had screenshots from the Benidorm chat. She had left the chat in the last few months.

So I am inferring that JR and NHS Fife lawyers didn’t actually get access to the thousands of pages of chat between the 7 people. Once Nicholls flounced off she didn’t have a record of what she said herself. It was a risk on their part.

So if you do silly things on a group chat - just mute it rather than leave in case you need to refer it. 🤪 Not really only joking. 🙃

P*ki is still commonly used by many working class people in my area of Scotland. One family member who is not racist (but who is angry at Pakistani grooming gang reports) works with and enjoys the company of people of many nationalities. He says the “Chinese restaurant word” as well and he loves his Chinese next door neighbours and harbours no ill-will for any of the many Chinese people in his city.

Many people including radio and TV personalities have “right wing” views such as admiring Trump’s policies or wanting illegal immigrants, some of whom who appear to hate the UK’s western culture and want to impose their culture on the UK. I believe many even here on MN would like to see illegal immigrants deported but it’s not the done thing to say it.

Some of the people with these “right wing” (Conservative?) views work for the NHS and despite using these outdated, ‘non-woke’ terms in private with supposedly trusted friends are able to treat all patients with dignity and respect. They won’t be able to stick up for Sandy or they too will be tarred with the ‘racist’ woke brush.

Sharing the disaster jokes was in very poor taste and I am sure most here including myself would have commented that was bad or not funny but I believe it’s not anything to do with the point of the tribunal.

For what? Reporting what happened at the tribunal?

It’s the same headline as everyone else - they’d be silly to ignore it.

I believe these two witnesses were added after the timetable was set, is that right? In which case, was it more fillabusting to either drag the tribunal out or rush summing up?

Ppl can still screenshot them though, right?

Those terms have not always been termed racist. Language changes frequently and todays acceptable becomes unacceptable next year.

They’ve been considered racist for at least the turn of the millennium - the NHS has had a focus on anti-racism for a good few years now so it’s highly unlikely that the people in the group chat weren’t aware of the offensive nature of those words.

I get the analogy. So few rapes are taken to court as statistically you need the perfect victim in order to get a conviction.

In order for your rights as a woman to be upheld you must be a paragon of virtue.

Both are unreasonable no woman should suffer rape and all should have their single sex spaces protected.

Fortunately, our analysis of the unpleasant chat thread and the characters of those involved is irrelevant.

Women are entitled to single sex spaces. Men who stay covered below the waist are still men and they shouldn’t be changing in the women’s area.

That doesn’t negate her right to single sex spaces, though, does it?

Take your intersectionality elsewhere.

Given the way that NC just this morning described how everyone when asked if they are racist says that they are not and it’s a lawyer’s responsibility to test this (to suggest that Fife’s legal team should have submitted evidence and provided today’s witnesses back before the first part of the tribunal), it would surprise me if NC and team had no awareness of this as a possibility prior to taking the case.

The lesson learned here is "dont put anything on a public system verbal or written", they are always subject to scrutiny when it hits the fan.

Came across this many years ago in a legal case with £millions at stake. When the barristers get to discovery stage things will come back and bite you or cost you money or reputation. (not me fortunately thank goodness).