NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #46

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

Tempted to buy some irn bru to mix with a coke. I haven't had irn bru since I was a teen. It's not sweet is it?

It's incredibly sweet!

It’s sweeter than a sweet thing with an additional portion of sugar.

So the point of all that was to get NHSF to concede that DU has a willy?

I think the main point might have been to alert the panel to the fact that they're being sweet-talked into agreeing that sex is oh-so-complicated that the only thing for sophisticated people to do is take a man's word for it.

Oh lols I don't know why I thought it was bitter. Maybe it was Tizer I had.

It's not a willy - it's a lady dick - bigot 😎

They made a version with less sugar (because of sugar tax I guess) that has sucralose or something in it. They also made a caffeine-free version. The original full-sugar, full-caffeine version is no more 😩

The whole point is to demonstrate that sex is not gender.

And since regulations and law (inc safeguarding laws) are about sex not gender, this is relevant to the case as NHS Fife have managed to conflate the two DESPITE being full of doctors who KNOW this but don't want to admit it for whatever reason.

Not anymore. They changed the recipe when the sugar tax came in. You have to buy the 1901 cans now to get the full, as nature intended, sugar blast from hell.

Well worth it though.

Ooh, Tizer...
There's a blast from the past.

Does Irn Bru come in those dinky wee tins? I really want to try coke/irn bru mix (can’t be arsed with capitals)

Had my head in my hands a la Joanna Cherry at 'she's chromosomally male' bit.

(The Irn Bru/Coke concoction sounds utterly horrible. And is it not a really weird colour?)

I wonder if asking SP to be heard last is a strategic move to stop JR filibustering with the other witnesses as if she does, she will then be reducing the amount of time she has to X examine SP at the end?

Dr Currer re. Dr Upton: "Although I have not examined Dr Upton she is also, in terms of secondary sexual characteristics in terms of genitalia, male.”

Genitalia are primary sexual characteristics and no, Dr Currer may not know about those.

Secondary sexual characteristics such as skeletal build and muscle mass are obvious even with clothing. No examination needed.

Rather more than that - it was to remove the obfuscation that the witness had introduced by talking about chromosomal abnormalities, as frequently done by TRAs in order to conflate gender with sex. If there can be over a hundred genders (allegedly) it helps the TRA case to pretend that sex is equally diverse.

No it was to confirm there are only two sexes and DrU is, was and always will be male.

I'm 65. Does that mean I have a palaeovagina?

Trans Reddit is also fond of the term 'gock' <vom>

It's more that I CBA with having two open cans in the fridge and the pressure to finish 660ml of fizzy juice before they both go flat. 🤣 I'm generally more of a tea/coffee drinker these days. Maybe I need to push the boat out and get two small bottles so they stay fizzy for longer...

Marketed as 'old and unimproved' (I've just hoiked out our bottle from the back of the cupboard)

That's known as a Muddy Puddle 'round these parts.

As far as I am aware the suffragette movement started in Manchester by Middle Class White Women. My point was that it initially excluded working class, black and ethnic minority women. The reality is that exclusion from legislation, policy making still exists for non-women middle class women.
I know what privilege is, I can assure you of that, I have experienced being at both ends of the spectrum of privilege. The only privilege I have ever had in my life was to be born a white.

I am very aware of my current status and circumstances. It is one of personal drivers for standing up and fighting back. Am I the perfect human NO, do I get things wrong YES. This is an area I have a significant amount of lived experience in.

I did not say that working class, black or ethnic minority women did not contribute, I said they are excluded from the history books.
I was writing a comment on Mums Net not a research article or defending my viva.

Thank you! I've been racking my brain trying to remember what that drink was called! I bought a tiny can of Dr Pepper once to try. I poured most of it down a drain, it was rank. Can you still buy Tizer?

How stupid is she, sitting in court offering up information she herself says she doesn’t know and hasn’t been asked! Obviously no one told her that you only answer the question you’ve been asked, so if a barrister asked if you have the time the answer is ‘yes’ not ‘yes, it’s 11:30am’