NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #46

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

Another long pause from witness

MC Yes, in vast maj of circumstances
NC Despite some v edge cases its still abinary
MC Yes, in life and death
NC Either of the 2 main categories M and F rhat humans and many other things divided on basis of reprod functions. Agree?
MC Is dictionary defn of sex
NC Is about large or small gametes, right?
MC Thats a v simplified defn yes. Theres absence of gametes, or lack of chromosomes or non-responsivness of hormones. So not a 3rd gamete.
NC 2 separate develop pathways
MC Yes if everything working normally and hormones normal

Putting money on one of the Fife witnesses considering arguing that "In a technical sense I was actually dead when I wrote this email"

Just ask them to bleep HR. They'll be able to tell the doctors what sex you are.

Please ask what do you mean by gender

I use thanks instead if something makes me laugh - like thanks for the laugh/applauding the witticism.

A lot of word salad there - NC please parse so we can understand

Sorry for the derail, but this popped up on my WhatsApp today.
Coincidence?

The sound of the penny dropping.

NC Do u share SPs GC belief that u cant change sex
MC Depends on how define sex
NC Assume on the defn we've discussed...
NC Do u share SPs GC belief that u cant change sexromosomes but can change express of gender. It sint just chromosomes is also how these function and hese impact. Producing hormones for 2ary sex characteristics. Sexual characs can be changed by adding hormones later on, but cant change yr chromosomes
NC On basis of reprod function, surgery can change this
Yes
NC If body configured to prod eggs y'll never prod sperm
Yes

sexromosomes is a lovely word😁

I think this is case of being the company you keep.

When you work for an isolated bubble institution or department, you can't get away from that company without sacrificing something like your career or pay and so the culture evolves into a really toxic place, because if nothing changes nothing changes.

It's like the boiled frog theory, it creeps up so slowly that you don't even notice that you're becoming part of this toxic environment yourself

There's absolutely no way SP was alone in her jokes or her views, given this issue has gone on unreported for so long. This was clearly the accepted culture of this workplace.

I took some time away yesterday and I had a relatively early night and whilst I can't forgive what SP has shared in a written group chat, I can't hold her to a higher standard than the rest of the organisation because this issue should have been tackled in it's infancy.

After listening to her long answer about whether someone was dead or alive it makes me really thankful that the moment I went from live to dead that the medical team stood over me was able to come to a very quick decision and started CPR.

I use the heart

Does anyone else find the word 'neo-vagina' just utterly grim?

yes, just dont look up active decay if your are sqeamish

I stopped paying attention for a minute and we are onto sperm finding a dead end in a neo vagina.

Thanks for that image Naomi!

Not as grim as ‘Surgical cavity’

NC Removing testicles for cancer, y're still a man
Yes
NC Says opposite re W
MC Removal of gonads doesnt change sex?
MC Not chromosomally
NC Offensive to say sex had changed
MC they'd need hormones to be added, but yes
NC Removal of gonads doesnt change a persons sex. If uncomfortable w ext sex they can have remodelled
Yes
NC Some M have a neovagina produced
MC I beleive so
NC But isnt a vagina
MC It isnt
NC Obv not as any sperm wld be in a dead end w no eggs to fertilise

Obv not as any sperm wld be in a dead end w no eggs to fertilise

😂

I'm not going to cast SP into the outer darkness. The jokes (full disclosure, after Pete the plumber, the first one surprised a laugh out of me) weren't just racist they were derivative and just not funny. But I give you Jayney Sutherley (the attached link is a brief description of the murder(?) she committed)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-52616318

She's suing after being tried and cleared of bullying and misgendering the male killer she is locked up with in a Scottish jail. As far as I know Alexandria Stewart is still in the women's wing enjoying his relationship with child killer Nyomi Fee. As well as being confined with this dangerous man (he's had his trachea shaved but no genital surgery) the allegations apparently cost her a chance at parole.

I hope Jayney wins, even if she is a nasty piece of work.

Humans are complex creatures. Nobody is 100% pure. No perfect victims. No perfect villains.

It's funny how each of the reactions seemed to mean something different when we still had the laughter one, but now they all just mean 'like'. The only time when one has a different flavour is when 'love' is used to express support for someone who has posted about something personal that is sad and difficult for her

NC is awsome

NC proving that witness both has same beliefs re 'sex change' as SP, and also that witness must believe that DU is male

Yes, pseudo-vagina would be much more accurate imo

Oh dear, looks like Maggie is a Great Big TERF