NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #46

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

Im 59 and can remember children referring to the local shop as the “P shop”. I remember using it with friends as I genuinely thought that’s what the shop was called! I once said it infront of my parents I was told explicitly why I should never it again, I was about 7 at the time.
I can understand some small children growing up with parents who’d never corrected them, thinking it was ok, but there’s no excuse once you’re older. Unless you’d lived under a rock for the past 50 years, there is zero excuse for NOT knowing how offensive that word is. Absolutely zero excuse.

First I think the jokes were racist, but I agree about compartmentalising. My eldest son’s girlfriend was an a&e nurse in a hospital that used to get a lot of prisoners in. They’d done vile things, and staff definitely had ‘views’ about them. They were still treated well.

I have very strong views about sex offenders and paedophiles. I'm sure I've aired those views many a time online. I think most people hold negative views about rapists and nonces right?

As nurses we still treat them with the same professionalism as any other patient.

So to anyone saying that Sandie would treat bme people poorly due to her views of them . Would you treat a rapist or a peadophile poorly due to your views of them?

Whatever SP’s motivation was the point you’re missing is that as soon as NHS Fife sanctioned Upton’s use of the FCR they broke the law, by denying her legal right to SSS. This tribunal is decided on a matter of law. Her motivation may be taken into account whilst the award is being considered, should she win, but no opinions of SP will alter that the panel will judge this case on the law. They can’t rule against her because they disapprove of her behaviour. Jane Russell will say anything at this point. Every single time she has tried to obfuscate and confuse the judge has rejected her claims.

Thank you this is very true. My experience as a survivor has been negative judgement from middle class men and women. It has been the salt of earth working class women who have shown more compassion and understanding.

I actually went no contact with a close relative and her close relative after a post defending Eddie Izzard I should just learn more and be kind. It was the straw that broke the camels back. Apparently her Christen mother being racist was ok, she went to church. Scottish BIL nasty comments about the English also ok.. The rudeness in front of my husband when using chop sticks apparently ok.

Yet my objection to men in women’s private spaces objectionable. I am a wear what you like, men need to accept other men’s femininity.

These same women identify as working class, however both went to university with ease in the 1990’s have never lived on benefits, without stable access to food or heating in the winter. The reality is they are middle class and highly unlikely to ever experience real poverty by UK standards. Yet they enjoy virtue signalling very much after all they are Christian’s and disrespect and racism is therefore ok.

They’re all nurses. They have to report racist behaviour to NMC. They are colleagues. It’s work adjacent and relevant.

Some pertinent reading here about private WhatsApp in a regulated profession -

https://redmans.co.uk/insights/court-of-session-holds-that-public-interest-trumps-right-to-privacy-for-police-officers-whatsapp-messages-bc-and-others-v-chief-constable-police-service-of-scotland-and-others-2018-csoh-104/

Do you take the same stance on the Met officers group chat posting incredibly misogynistic stuff?

If it was a group of 6 close friends who had a privare WhatsApp group and happened to be policemen (rather like than a dept or police group chat) I think I would feel the same. I am not saying I wouldn’t think they were deeply unpleasant people (I think lots of people are deeply unpleasant). But should their employers be able to sack them for a private conversation, I think you think I believe racism and sexism are ok, I absolutely don’t and have no problem people being disciplined for either, I just think your employer has no business in a private conversation.

Can someone clarify. Was it a few jokes within a short period time within a much longer time when the group was active or a steady flow over 7 years?

You may be interested to read these https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67650961.amp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9wl9l01n4yo.amp

It's an unexpected twist in a trial that's been full of drama from start to end, but even if Sandie Peggie was a staunch Hitleress I would still support her right to have a single-sex space at work to get changed in, and would expect her employer not to side with the man who insists he has to be in the women’s changing room.

A yet there is systemic racial discrimination/ bias in the healthcare system 🤔

Oh the TRA are out in force now. They were nowhere to be seen when things weren't going well for them.
Now all jumping in here with delight. Who'd have thunk it.
I'm off to some eat something, get some kip and see what tomorrow brings.

Public health Scotland A & E data to May with interactive charts

Yes, it just got real. It understood that Nurse Peggie, though with an unblemished 30 year career, privately holds some views that do not meet the Purity Test.

Those erstwhile supporters who went ‘Oh nooo! Not our St Sandie!’ upon discovering that she, and the woman who reported her, are in fact normal people from normal backgrounds who can compartmentalise certain feelings, at work, so as to remain professional while at work; those people need to take a moment.

This is the omnicause intersectionality that TRA espouse. ‘The witch thinks THIS, therefore she thinks THAT! Therefore we must burn her’.

In many ways, this (especially given that Peggie’s accuser has dropped herself in deeper shit, the patient confidentially debacle) is important. Peggie’s inevitable win comes with some pain for those of us who defend her right to single sex spaces, but the victory at the other side will be all the greater, once it is demonstrated that not only the pure women are deserving of rights.

As a CSA, DV and Rape survivor I also have very strong views about sex offenders and paedophiles and have dealt with them in a past job. I behaved professionally at all times to their face.

in my job, I have had to deal with parents demanding their SEND children’s legal records being amended without a deed poll and definitely no GRC. I find their support of their vulnerable child disbursing and very transhousen. A few colleagues were aware of my view that I do not believe you can change sex and my concerns of these vulnerable children and frustration at legal documents being amended without legal documents. Yet I separate the tasks within my employment from my personal beliefs and provide an equal service to all. It would seem Sandie Peggie has done the same.

Well today has been interesting, i never was looking for the perfect victim of a man in a womans space and now we have evidence she wasnt the ‘perfect’ victim.

Honestly i could not give a toss about the jokes she told i am never going to meet or be friends with this woman i dont care if she likes Donald Trump he is president because 77 million people voted for him she is not the only person who likes him!

what i do care about is whether she was a victim of harassment because of a man in a female changing room while she had a personal and embarrassing situation to take care of, she voiced those concerns and had the bravery to follow through regardless of the mud slinging she must of known would happen and i am proud of her as a woman for standing up for her rights many have not been brave enough or are in a situation where they cant and we need to stay focused on whats is important in this case instead of focusing on the successful derailing that JR pulled today,

I want SP to win this case because she is standing up for all our rights to dignity and privacy and as for what she is like in her personal life it is non of my business!

Exactly this

Could someone clarify the part about the adult baby diaper wearer that was brought up. Was this the 35 year old patient that LN named and discussed in the WhatsApp chat. I wonder if a GDPR complaint has been lodged as a result of her witness evidence where she admitted to this crime?

Those erstwhile supporters who went ‘Oh nooo! Not our St Sandie!’ upon discovering that she, and the woman who reported her, are in fact normal people from normal backgrounds

I think you're being disingenuous. People are disappointed not because she has been found to be normal but because she circulated a few racist jokes, which many people would consider unpleasant and belittling behaviour. I still support her and her case, as most of the people commenting have taken pains to state, because 'what she's like' has nothing to do with whether women can have single-sex spaces.

I would but i tried to forget adult babies had even been brought up tbh 🙈

I think it was a cut and paste / forward of 10 jokes together in one instance. From 2022z

One of the witnesses suggested there were 4 instances of racist / unpleasant comms, but NHSFife only put this one into evidence.

The thread runs for 7 years. This is the worst thing Sandy has said according to NCs framing of her questions.

The witness who raised the flag on this did her own additions to the chat including was criticising a witness who complained and shared her full name and medical condition. She admitted she breached NMC rules.

She also made negative comments about ‘drag queens’ etc etc. So the chat was poor quality from all 7 I’d say and a safe space for poor practice and material.

My thought exactly. Off for an early night.

I can’t say if they are the same or separate.

I think there is a patient who LN shares details about a complaint, their name and medical condition. It can get someone struck off.

Seperately the nappy rash patient is mentioned.

My guess is that they’re separate as the nappy detail is too identifying. I suspect NC wouldn’t try to add to the data breach.

Am I the only one who doesn’t think it was entirely unexpected, we were told at the start her husband had put some similar jokes on social media, it’s not a stretch to think they’d have a similar mindset.

The law is for everyone, not just people whose opinions we agree with.

It was a list of ten (I think) jokes all about the Pakistan floods - looks like it maybe originated on a nationalist forum (or was shared on one), then got copied by various people across social media posts - SP copied it from somewhere onto the WhatsApp thread.