NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #45

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

Unfortunately people see WhatsApp as the equivalent of speech. It’s actually the equivalent of writing something down and signing your name to it. If you tell an offensive joke it’s in context, to a limited group of people. Sure people can report what you’ve said, but that’s not the same as WhatsApp where you’re effectively signing your name to whatever you wrote and have potentially an unlimited audience none of whom are going to know you or the social context in which you wrote it.

I wondered if she might be one of tomorrows surprise witnesses

Really feeling for NC. Is this the first she's heading about these messages.

R.e. nurses and cliques, not a nurse but I have also heard a group of black nurses / HCP make racist comments when I was in hospital recently. It's not just white nurses.

Thankfully it was just blood tests and next time I needed them I put my foot down and insisted on having them at my GP surgery instead. Glad I had that option.

Edit: unambiguous racist comments that is, not jokes or racist terminology.

NHS Fife failing to provide single sex changing facilities is indirect religious discrimination against Muslim women and others with religious beliefs requiring them to not undress with unrelated men. The organisation is by default systematically anti-Islamic.

Very sensible!

Surely all NC can do is argue that LN is also not perfect as she engaged with the group until the tribunal point. I'm intrigued to see what her point will be.

I think what is 'heaven' and what is 'hell' in this context may depend on whether you've gone through life at the sharp end of one or more of the -isms or not.

Wouldn't it be sheer heaven to be somewhere where us women, weren't subjected to daily sexism? Ditto the other prejudices which make life hell for so many people.

If this is true surely SP saw this coming and forewarned NC? She would have known those messages were out there and NC must surely have asked if there was anything lurking?
if she didn’t NC must be furious!

Those jokes are nasty. I can imagine content like this being shared amongst groups that are confident they are like minded, but sharing this vile shit on a chat with work colleagues is mental. And the fact no one called her on it is even more mental. I wouldn't have a cup of tea with someone who sent those jokes, never mind a week in Benny.

Is she entitled to SSS. Totally.

Was she motivated by bigotry or the righteous need for these spaces. After this morning, unclear.

If Fife do investigate the racist stuff , will all of those in the group chat be investigated too? There's no way SP would have said anything in a group chat if she didn't think all participants thought the same. We all know our friends and what their views are on certain topics.

Just read the BNP/Pakistini 'joke'. It's in bad taste, but to me, that reads more like a joke at the BNP's expense than the Pakistani flood victims.

A bit like the scene in Trainspotting 2, where Renton and Simon end up in an Orange Lodge pub where they electrify the audience with a made-up song about killing Catholics at the Battle of the Boyne. I'm Catholic and I don't know any Catholics who were offended by this scene - they all thought it was hilariously ripping the piss out of the Orange Lodge.

Sandie sounds like half of my extended family. They are white, working class and don't mince their words. They call trans people weird, they have strong views against immigration and also use unacceptable words when discussing ethnic minorities. They all insist they aren't racists though and wouldn't treat other people differently.

I don't align with them but I have thought from the beginning that Sandie is just like them. I'm not at all surprised about the comments in the chat groups, even one of my best friends says the p word at times (yes I call her out!). Some of my extended family are now impressed by Trump's policies despite laughing at the man himself.

When I was out canvassing last year for Labour around council estates I heard loads of people say they were voting for Reform, bang on about immigration, stop the boats, grooming gangs - you name it I heard it.

I'm not making excuses for what Sandie has said or written, just pointing out that her expressions and language aren't unusual within many communities.

I am not sure the last two witnesses have thought things through here.

And don’t forget there are plenty of TRAs who support the rights of some appalling male people to be housed in female prisons and receive ‘gender affirming care’.

Exactly. Accusations of racism are a distraction intended to keep attention.away
from the real issues.being examined.

👆

While there's a break, here's my tangential two-pennorth.

My son works on construction sites. Some of the people he works with are racist. One is a flat earther who claims there is "very little evidence that space exists". The majority voted Reform and think Nigel Farage is a top bloke. Some of them have very unreconstructed views about women. Every one of them without exception deserves to be protected by the extensive health, safety and employment laws that govern their workplaces. No one says "well I know Bob fell off the badly built scaffold, but he did say those off-colour things about Muslims so,,,"

And I still think that if they were genuinely alarmed by what SP said they should have said something. And stop going on holiday with her FFS

It's all part of 'the internet never forgets' and 'we've been keeping the receipts'.
Sometimes it works in your favour, sometimes something you said comes back to bite you..

Today's evidence doesn't look good for Sandie to the extent that it will probably limit the chances of her getting a hero's welcome if she returns to work.

It seems pretty tangential to the tribunal case, and it raises questions about everyone concerned who either joined in or failed to report quite nasty racist commentary and 'jokes'.

I think this is what SPs daughter was alluding to last night.

I agree the P word is now widely accepted as a racist slur and should never be used today.
In my experience when it was used in the 70's/80's, particularly when followed by the word 'shop' it was a form of shorthand. Not in a derogatory manner but the same as saying aussie instead of Australian.
Today is completely different though.

I am disappointed she made these 'jokes'. It does now paint her in a different light to me.

I reckon her reputation will be fine amongst the Reform/Tommy Robinson crowd but gone to complete shit with many others.

And this is definitely going to make headlines and give the TRA and woke bekinders plenty of ammo.

Bet there will be plenty of calls for her to be struck off now. (not that she should be)

If there was a use for SAD TIMES, I reckon this would be it.

Not surprised JR saved this till last, it makes Sandie look fucking awful.

Just trying out my new username 😊

I guess maybe i am completely out of it here but is that just it? Like shes racist because she has an off colour sense of humour? I wouldnt see it that way at all maybe it is a working class thing i would never make those jokes but i wouldnt instantly think racist to someone who does you can have a very offensive sense of humour and not apply your sense of humour in real life i think the problem is who she has shared her sense of humour with and how she must have felt comfortable doing so.

Lets hope the rats aren’t running away from the sinking ship.