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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #43

1000 replies

nauticant · 25/07/2025 15:21

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
39
BiologicallyNebulous · 25/07/2025 19:04

Another 2 threads missed!
Will catch up on the Tribunal Tweets substack and come back.

singthing · 25/07/2025 19:05

"....the omnishambles ending provided by the statement from NHS Fife..."

General aside, I am amused by the fact the misogynists over at Wikipedia haven't yet caught onto the fact they missed about 759 different updates on NHS Fife's statement, including retracting the smear against Sex Matters:

"NHS Fife allege that they have received threats of physical and sexual violence towards their staff that required police involvement as a result of the case, and issued a statement regarding this blaming "misinformation" and criticising Sex Matters for attempting to "steer public opinion"."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peggie_v_NHS_Fife#Response

(Obviously I've archived the page for when that gets spotted and changed.)

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #43
BoeotianNightmare · 25/07/2025 19:06

I haven't been able to keep up with the IT evidence today. The screenshots that were edited, were they screenshots of DUs "contemporaneous notes" or of something else?

NHSFifeSadTimes · 25/07/2025 19:08

It’s me - NotfinanciallyResponsibleforyou aka NHSFifeMissingRiskAssessnent now self I’d’ ig as Sad Times 😂😂

checking for the Friday night NHS press release 😂😂

NHS Fife omnishambles is neverending

Another2Cats · 25/07/2025 19:12

Just as a total aside, I would really like to express my gratitude to @BezMills for all of her contributions over the course of this session of the Tribunal.

So many of her comments have, quite literally, made me LOL.

I am v v jealous of how eloquent and funny you are about everything!

But, what has really surprised me, is some of your references. Anyone who can reference both Isaac Asimov and an army Physical Training Instructor (and, more importantly, make it funny as well) deserves a big thumbs up.

I am not a software engineer (but in a related field) but, likewise, I am not that good at people-ing.

It just seems surprising (in a nice way) that, being a woman who has been interested in science-fiction since school and who was in the T.A. back in the late 1980s/early 1990s (and am quite aware of male PTIs), that there is someone else with a similar experience to me.

InterrobangsArePureBias · 25/07/2025 19:13

NHSFifeSadTimes · 25/07/2025 19:08

It’s me - NotfinanciallyResponsibleforyou aka NHSFifeMissingRiskAssessnent now self I’d’ ig as Sad Times 😂😂

checking for the Friday night NHS press release 😂😂

NHS Fife omnishambles is neverending

Edited

Give up the wait. After last week, the responsible squirrel wranglers put halperidol in the Red Bull and substituted a cosy drey for the bouncy castle.

KnottyAuty · 25/07/2025 19:15

GreenFriedTomato · 25/07/2025 18:57

I obviously have no evidence to support what I'm about to say but I'll say it anyway.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least that Upton either
A) knew he was a mediocre(crap) doctor and would never particularly shine.
B) didn't want to be a doctor (well not in a hospital having to work really hard unsociable hours dealing with all sorts of rif raf)

So he knew trans is a hot topic, not many trans medics around. Knows how trans are practically untouchable especially in NHS.
Sets the scene in a new place of work, writes and waits and writes and waits for an opportunity to make some discrimination/transphobia claim and bam, appears Sandie. (At what point of his career did he stop being bearded Teddy, the hockey player again and become Beth?)

He gets loads of publicity, maybe doesn't need a payout, but becomes some big trans celebrity in the medical world and fast tracked to work with Webberley or some other loon as an expert on genderbollocks.

Of course I have just dreamt that up. But as they say, reality is often stranger than fiction.

Edited

That does seem a bit far fetched… but who knows?

I was assuming that it was just about feathering a local nest and creating a very comfortable work situation in a trust near where DU grew up. And that’s why SP had to be completely annihilated - professionally speaking so that no one else made trouble. I don’t think DU wanted anyone else looking into it - he refused the suggestion ti report to the police. I think outside investigations would have been too awkward. Internal was the way to go, with KS sorting out the gang of 6. He never dreamed he’d have the phone examined… how could someone be so arrogant to think they could tell so many white lies and not eventually come a cropper?

People on here called the JR conflict of interest from the beginning. If DU was innocent wouldn’t you want your own barrister to avoid getting caught up in the NHS incompetence? Why have joint counsel? The only explanation I can think of is that it benefits DU by locking NHSF to his case. We will need to see if Fife cast him off next week…?

MeinKraft · 25/07/2025 19:15

As this case goes on, it becomes more clear to me that both Upton and Nurse Peggie were let down by their employer. Upton should not have been allowed into a position where he could make women uncomfortable. He should not have been left to compile his own evidence, he should not have been encouraged to think of himself as a victim the way he was. Yes he behaved like an audacious cunt and i’m not saying i’m sympathetic to him because i'm not. But what kind of employer lets a staff member go to a tribunal with doctored evidence? Or just totally ignores HR advice?

Sandy Peggie’s treatment at the hands of her employer was appalling. It actually makes me sick, the disregard they had for her, the framing of her as the aggressor, the note that Upton had on his phone titled ‘nurse’ as if she wasn’t even deserving of a name. The worst part is, they’re so belligerent in court, I doubt the culture will ever change at NHS Fife. The doctors really seem to see themselves as a better kind of human and the nurses are irrelevant and dispensable.

NHSFifeSadTimes · 25/07/2025 19:15

nauticant · 25/07/2025 17:45

I've been picking some terrific blackberries over the past week. It's a great year for them.

I make blackberry & sloe gin jam which is rather delicious even if I do say so myself. Lots of freezing being done.

DuchessofReality · 25/07/2025 19:16

Am getting all ‘end of school year nostalgic’ about this now it is beginning to wrap up. I have followed so many of these, fuming and gasping.
Maya’s, with the ‘it would be unkind of me to ask how that is going’
Alison’s with her being amazing on the witness stand, and with the witness with the support dog.
ERCC with ‘no binario’ and ‘no binaria’ and the jaw dropping fury of realising a rape crisis centre couldn’t care less about rape victims.
Harry Miller vs College of Policing - the Court of Appeal one was actually live streamed on their YouTube channel and I remember Lady Simler being politely incredulous that there was no common sense applied at all as to whether a complaint was justified before being recorded as a non crime hate incident.
Jo Phoenix and the OU
Probably lots more I have forgotten!

Londonmummy66 · 25/07/2025 19:17

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 25/07/2025 18:12

For anyone who needs a “heresy” souvenir, Jess De Wahls is having a wee sale:

www.jessdewahls.com/bso-embroidered-patches/heretic

Thank you - stocking fillers ordered - plus one for me. Sadly I can't seem to order any of her lovely floral patches as I'd love a load of those. And to support her more generally.

Another2Cats · 25/07/2025 19:17

NHSFifeSadTimes · 25/07/2025 19:15

I make blackberry & sloe gin jam which is rather delicious even if I do say so myself. Lots of freezing being done.

Edited

That's interesting. As an alternative, how would blackberry & sloe gin be?

Namechangedagain999 · 25/07/2025 19:17

I don’t know how it works but will costs not be awarded when this case is found in SP favour? As well as damages? Justice is just shit!

Totallygripped · 25/07/2025 19:18

InterrobangsArePureBias · 25/07/2025 18:50

My incredulous reminder to myself that IB’s first degree was in immunology. An area in which there are well-established sex differences in immunological responses to external and self-antigens. And clear distinctions in innate and adaptive scale and trajectory of immune responses.

Edited

School day is a long one today. I don't understand the science but if you say the last sentence in a certain way you could almost be reading T S Eliot.

Theswiveleyeballsinthesky · 25/07/2025 19:21

DuchessofReality · 25/07/2025 19:16

Am getting all ‘end of school year nostalgic’ about this now it is beginning to wrap up. I have followed so many of these, fuming and gasping.
Maya’s, with the ‘it would be unkind of me to ask how that is going’
Alison’s with her being amazing on the witness stand, and with the witness with the support dog.
ERCC with ‘no binario’ and ‘no binaria’ and the jaw dropping fury of realising a rape crisis centre couldn’t care less about rape victims.
Harry Miller vs College of Policing - the Court of Appeal one was actually live streamed on their YouTube channel and I remember Lady Simler being politely incredulous that there was no common sense applied at all as to whether a complaint was justified before being recorded as a non crime hate incident.
Jo Phoenix and the OU
Probably lots more I have forgotten!

Let us remember all those who were reversing into a bin at the time

GreenFriedTomato · 25/07/2025 19:24

KnottyAuty · 25/07/2025 19:15

That does seem a bit far fetched… but who knows?

I was assuming that it was just about feathering a local nest and creating a very comfortable work situation in a trust near where DU grew up. And that’s why SP had to be completely annihilated - professionally speaking so that no one else made trouble. I don’t think DU wanted anyone else looking into it - he refused the suggestion ti report to the police. I think outside investigations would have been too awkward. Internal was the way to go, with KS sorting out the gang of 6. He never dreamed he’d have the phone examined… how could someone be so arrogant to think they could tell so many white lies and not eventually come a cropper?

People on here called the JR conflict of interest from the beginning. If DU was innocent wouldn’t you want your own barrister to avoid getting caught up in the NHS incompetence? Why have joint counsel? The only explanation I can think of is that it benefits DU by locking NHSF to his case. We will need to see if Fife cast him off next week…?

Your take is probably more realistic than my daydreaming.
I do think he has definitely and deliberated used a trans status to advantage himself though.
If he was just an ordinary male doctor, he wouldn't have been given an inch of what he's received.
As special beth he gets to cry and sob and take lots of paid time off work without having his suitability for the role questioned.

yourhairiswinterfire · 25/07/2025 19:25

“at this point Sandie’s team might be able to win on Jane Russell’s own submissions!”

The way she's performed, I'm surprised she didn't put it to the tech expert that the reason it's impossible to recreate the weirdness with Upton's notes is because on top of being every -ist and -phobe you can think of who probably puts cream first, jam second on her scones, Sandie might also be a witch and could have cast an un-contemporaneous spell on the phone.

Watchingfromadistance · 25/07/2025 19:27

Many apologies if this has already been covered, but still several hours behind. I'm wondering who the two witnesses are Who are being called for Monday. (I heard Maggie Curra's continuation is on Tuesday morning, but Monday? )
Thanks in advance :)

Lunde · 25/07/2025 19:28

NebulousDog · 25/07/2025 17:42

Phew (sort of caught up).

After the February hearings (and the news that people had “looked” at Upton’s phone) I was expecting that there would have been a chain of emails to/from the BMA person (who might have been a friend, rather than dealing with this in the office since it was over Xmas), with various iterations of the “events”/issues.

Since none of that sort of thing has been mentioned, presumably Upton didn’t volunteer personal emails/call logs or there was nothing relevant?

At the end of the day, I am still struggling to understand why a nurse was suspended and was investigated for 18 months when, in any sensible organisation, both members of staff would have a meeting with HR and rotas would be fixed until new changing arrangements could be made.

I’ll sign off for the weekend in the hope that Nauticant gets a break

There was no proper phone examination. Upton didn't agree to it and the ET cannot order it.

What was agreed was a limited examination of his contemporary personal notes but the forensic expert was not allowed to download them. Instead Fife's IT guy allowed Upton to download them (via a video call) and then the IT guy forwarded them to the forensic expert.

So the forensic expert never saw the phone or the original files. However, even so, he was able to conclude that

  1. the notes had been edited several times to add/change data - including adding SP's name to an earlier note
  2. The dates could not be relied upon and had been changed/hidden with images superimposed etc
NHSFifeSadTimes · 25/07/2025 19:31

If JR is concerned about leaving at 3pm to catch a flight there are other options such as getting a later flight, catching the train, or first morning flight out.

Is she panicking that she will be trapped in Dundee? She should have considered that before her ramblings this afternoon

KnottyAuty · 25/07/2025 19:31

singthing · 25/07/2025 19:05

"....the omnishambles ending provided by the statement from NHS Fife..."

General aside, I am amused by the fact the misogynists over at Wikipedia haven't yet caught onto the fact they missed about 759 different updates on NHS Fife's statement, including retracting the smear against Sex Matters:

"NHS Fife allege that they have received threats of physical and sexual violence towards their staff that required police involvement as a result of the case, and issued a statement regarding this blaming "misinformation" and criticising Sex Matters for attempting to "steer public opinion"."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peggie_v_NHS_Fife#Response

(Obviously I've archived the page for when that gets spotted and changed.)

What is to be done about the Wikipedia misogyny? It’s really bad. So much misinformation regarding women’s issues and GI. How can the content be appealed? I tried a change to update something following the SC Ruling and got told off. Is there a route to appeal? It’s a site thats supposed to value facts…?

GreenFriedTomato · 25/07/2025 19:32

Londonmummy66 · 25/07/2025 19:17

Thank you - stocking fillers ordered - plus one for me. Sadly I can't seem to order any of her lovely floral patches as I'd love a load of those. And to support her more generally.

I mentioned her on a previous thread. I purchased a while ago the Heretic badge, Venus flytrap ovary badge, the big swinging ovary pins and some stickers.

I was sent some postcards and prints as freebies too.

www.jessdewahls.com/bso-embroidered-patches/heretic

Justabaker · 25/07/2025 19:32

Namechangedagain999 · 25/07/2025 19:17

I don’t know how it works but will costs not be awarded when this case is found in SP favour? As well as damages? Justice is just shit!

Employment tribunals are first tier tribunals and the parties - normally - bear their own costs. IMHO - one of the reasons that so few employees are successful in employment tribunals is because few can afford representation of a standard consistent with their (former) employers.

Normally is doing some heavy lifting. If an employer defends a case that has 'no reasonable chance of success' and then loses - they may have to pay some of the costs of the employee. Lizzy Pitt recovered some costs - IIRC - because Cambridge Council folded like a deck chair on the morning the hearing was going to start. Allison Bailey got £20k of costs from Garden Court Chambers but that was because Garden Court made such a mess of the bundle (refusing the help of Peter Daly who offered to sort it). It was £20k because the Tribunal said that was the maximum they could award without having a hearing as to costs. A costs hearing would have cost as much as the costs IYSWIM.

Monday - evidence from two experienced nurses from NHS Fife. A strong recommendation to turn in. Tuesday - cross examination of Maggie Currer.

Then submissions from the advocates after that.

Largesso · 25/07/2025 19:36

DrUptonsWallofSad · 25/07/2025 18:36

And was also given info about gender neutral facilities, though I can't remember who by.

By KS according to material in the bundle, I believe although she didn't repeat it on the stand.

Largesso · 25/07/2025 19:37

I’ve just finished listening to Michael Foran’s live summary of today and I can thoroughly recommend the subscription. It is worth every penny.

I thought I would summarise for my own benefit and share with youz for those interested.

In February, as part of the initial disclosure, DU submitted screenshots of his ‘contemporaneous’ notes.

In cross examination on Feb 12:

NC Did you show KS phone notes?
DU Can't recall exactly what I said. May have mentioned/shown re phone notes.
NC [reads] KS has info. And notes. And Beth has notes.
Re what you showed KS. Did you show KS your resus notes on phone.
DU Don't remember. KS may be mistaken. Have to ask her.
NC email KS to ED 30/12. Foreshadows IX interview. [reads c SP v diff to work with and Beth kept log]
DU KS understanding but not true cos I don't have note re resus
NC You told KS about it though. [turns to DU
NC contemporaneous notes on phone] reads dates
DU I understand. That is what contemporaneous means

Snarky snark snark

During the hiatus caused by dodgy disclosure NC team submitted an order requesting DU’s phone so they could have it forensically examined.

I suspect that NC/ CE/ MG had already clocked something suspicious looking, aside from their broader suspicions re DU and his relationship to the truth.

This order was refused. I think because the judge felt it wasn’t perhaps within the remit of an ET but also DU offered to provide the data.

NC/ CE/ MG hired JB to examine the data to be provided by DU.

A meeting was set up for JB to talk to DU.

In order to prepare for that meeting he asked for DU to provide information about what phone he has, and what apps he uses so he could be as familiar as he could be before the meeting.

AND THIS BIT I DIDN’T KNOW UNTIL FORAN: DU flat out refused to provide this basic information.

This was why the meeting was cancelled because JB could not do his job without that.

Instead JR’s team choose, according to PD’s testimony under cross, the 6th best option () which was to have the NHS Cyber Security man (how do I know he’s a man I hear you cry! Or should that have been a full stop) PD hop on a Teams call to watch DU produce the screenshots and attendant data in real time.

He supplies an empty log template and instructions in advance.

DU is expected to download the Screenshots live whilst watched and populate the log in real time.

There are three oddities:

  • During the live video call DU’s screen seemed to freeze a number of times which meant that PD and his pal had no way of knowing what DU was during those times. We don’t know how long they lasted. Screen freezing usually means the connection has dropped.
  • A fair reading of this, in my view in the wider context, is that DU and wife had practiced in advance and new if they clicked off the wifi at their end it would look frozen at the other end and they would have time to manipulate the data that was seemingly being downloaded in real time.
  • There are two folders: one is downloads folder where things are automatically downloaded to and the other is labelled Medical etc. DU explanation to PD is that he liked to put things where he could more easily find them but why, then, did 1-5 remain in downloads.
  • My guess is that DU didn’t need to manipulate 1-5 and forgot he’d left them in a different folder to the ones he had manipulated.
  • The output of this meeting, the downloaded screenshots were not sent to the court as the original screenshots but embedded into another document which means there is no way to access the data. The only thing JB could do was assess the log itself on its own merits.
  • The log was appended to PD’s report which implied that he himself had produced the log. He had not. DU had populated the blank template himself.

This was submitted to the court and JB reviewed it, wrote up his report and submitted that the court.

PD reviewed JB’s report and took no issue with it.

JR had plenty of time to parse the report.

JR questions PD and draws him into offering opinions about DU being genuine in claim that the meta data re edit dates happening before creation dates could only be a fuck up at Google. It his not a witnesses role to offer opinions. That is only for expert witnesses and the opinion must be limited to their field of expertise. PD is not an expert witness.

CE does an excellent job of cross and only gives him agree/ disagree questions and so he is slowly taken down an ever decreasing tunnel of honesty. He can’t explain the discrepancies/ they could show manipulation/ he wondered why no forensic exam.

Foran suggests that there is a possibility JR and her team had not clocked what JB’s report actually said and so had to come up with their cross questions in the 20 minute gap and the only thing they could come up with was to try and undermine the credibility of JB.

They tried to suggest that because his report outlined that there was no plausible explanation for the dates of editing to come before the dates of creation as a number of these screenshots of ‘contemporaneous’ notes that JB was saying DU and lied and if he is saying DU has lied be must be a bigot. Basically.

Let that sink in. Only a bigot would imply DU was lying using evidence.

But – get this – the only person who said that DU was lying was JR in cross. JB never said it. Evidence in chief didn’t claim it. They were leaving it up to the panel to make their own inference.

JR Russell in cross said repeatedly ‘the only plausible reason is that Upton is lying’ (paraphrase but more or less).

JR tries to also demonstrate JB is not impartial because of explanation marks and his assertion that its not fair to present the data in this way. JB doesn’t back down and states it is not fair to not give expert witnesses the information they need to reproduce the data and so verify it. Without that possibility they can’t verify and that’s not fair to anyone.

V. Good JB

FEB 3 SP Testimony

JR A week before the Xmas eve incident, DU wrote "won't make eye contact, I can feel the dismissal, cldn't find her, SP wouldnt look or respond to me and left the area" That's her contemporaneous note.
SP I dont recall this
JR Do u have any
JR evidence to refute this?
SP No. But I didn't ignore her.
JR Looking at the IX interviews, and these bullet points re Louise not noting issues but dynamics were difficult. SP might ignore or delegate requests of DU. U cldnt stand being in the same place?
NC: That's a false reading of the doc so ignore please
JR On being told of dynamics of u exiting a cubicle, it had been brought to Louise's attention?
SP I think Beth's making it up
JR Other's had noticed this and that's what I mean
SP Y'll have to ask others
SP I've never ignored Beth

FEB 12 DU

NC Did you show KS phone notes?
DU Can't recall exactly what I said. May have mentioned/shown re phone notes.
NC [reads] KS has info. And notes. And Beth has notes.
Re what you showed KS. Did you show KS your resus notes on phone.
DU Don't remember. KS may be mistaken. Have to ask her.
NC email KS to ED 30/12. Foreshadows IX interview. [reads c SP v diff to work with and Beth kept log]
DU KS understanding but not true cos I don't have note re resus
NC You told KS about it though. [turns to DU
NC contemporaneous notes on phone] reads dates
DU I understand. That is what contemporaneous means.
NC Last wrote note on 28/12
NC notes still on your phone. Backed up? May be q imps you don't delete them.
DU Not intending to.

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