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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #43

1000 replies

nauticant · 25/07/2025 15:21

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
39
borntobequiet · 27/07/2025 09:19

NebulousSupportPostcard · 27/07/2025 01:16

I wish I could post photos but a link will have to do for now.

If you look from p145 of these Fife NHS Clinical Governance Board papers, our witness refuser, Head of Nursing, Jamie Doyle is currently responsible for a very lightweight Quality of Care Review process with a powerpoint presentation.

Amongst pages of nothing much, it includes a full page photo of Walt Disney and the quote "The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing".
https://www.nhsfife.org/media/iail0oqv/clinical-governance-committee-papers-20250307.pdf

Someone on the inside is trolling the Board, Mr Doyle!

TL;DR Jamie Doyle, Head of Nursing, seems to have been a key player in Sandie's trumped up 'patient safety'-related suspension, but has refused to attend the tribunal to give evidence. And the Sandie suspension comes at the end of a year where Mr Doyle has himself been named in a public inquiry around an unexpected death at Victoria Hospital. Miss Russell, advocate represented Fife at that enquiry.

( Are there enough Miss Russell, advocates in the country for that to have been a different one to the SP tribunal? Is Mr Doyle hiding away for any reason? So many questions!)

Edited

I think the adjective “lightweight” is too kind. It’s the sort of thing I might be happy with from a fairly middling GCSE student. This is a lazy person.

Boiledbeetle · 27/07/2025 09:22

SidewaysOtter · 27/07/2025 09:10

@NHSFifeSadTimes I’ll look the recipe up when I get home. Poke me if I forget!

Scones.....yes please. Jam then cream obviously the correct order.

Woah, woah, WOAH. Cream is dairy, so should be put on first. You don’t make a jam sandwich by going bread-jam-butter, do you?!

No! But I do do my scones dairy jam dairy as I butter them first.

GnomeDePlume · 27/07/2025 09:24

What next for DU? He isn't going to come out of this looking good. Nobody is going to trust him.

I see him as one of those 'serial joiner' types. Bounces from one thing to the next as he enjoys the attention of being a new entrant/supplicant/convert.

He will disappear from view after this citing stress/fatigue. He will reappear in a while with a haircut. I predict in his future he will discover god/macrobiotics/lycra. Possibly all three but sequentially (doesn't want to spread his specialness too thin).

He no more believes he is a woman than I believe I am an aardvark. He just likes the attention.

Largesso · 27/07/2025 09:25

rebax · 27/07/2025 09:06

Up to a point.

There have been references to the Board being aware of the incident in early January IIRC, but I don't think we've seen a paper trail around it.

I have a suspicion that Jamie Doyle's absence may be an attempt to keep Senior Management and the Board out of the tribunal, as his cross-examination could be telling.

Also his suggestion about a police report for a hate crime - I think it would be unusual for anybody in the public sector to do that without cover from above.

The email he wrote is in the bundle and transcribed by The Times today. It does give the impression his desire to report to police was his very own idea.

Given what the other poster found out about JB IB previous ET choosing not to appear bit would seem logical he has chosen not to appear here either. I didn’t know you could refuse so also had assumed he hadn’t been called for some reason but I now realise an ET is not the same as a criminal court so you probably can refuse.

Why did the others agree to appear? They must have so believed their own myth.

But I think panel can infer what they like about non appearance so it would seem JN just doesn’t give a fuck or feel responsibility to anyone else. But that the women at least do feel that, even in amongst all their other nonsense.

CriticalCondition · 27/07/2025 09:26

Who was the shadowy figure in Maya's case whose name appeared in critical documents in the bundle but they never did?

Justabaker · 27/07/2025 09:26

@KnottyAuty
How many others wish they’d done that?!

How interesting that it was man who said no. In fact, the only man other than Hapless IT Bod who seems to have gotten within the blast radius.

Arran2024 · 27/07/2025 09:28

On the subject of scones and jam/cream has anyone seen this utterly bizarre piece by Dawn French? https://x.com/BOURNYBOY76/status/1948838740849557566

https://x.com/BOURNYBOY76/status/1948838740849557566

FleurFloor · 27/07/2025 09:29

SternlyMatthews · 27/07/2025 09:05

Good short piece from Euan McColm in the Scotman, on doctors & trust, with an honourable mention for Pete, & scathing on Searle & Upton, a consultant not a three year old, & not suitable for a doctors career, respectively.

https://archive.is/2cjIp

Great piece.

My confidence in hcps has definitely been shaken by this, and I won't be the only one!

SternlyMatthews · 27/07/2025 09:31

rebax · 27/07/2025 09:06

Up to a point.

There have been references to the Board being aware of the incident in early January IIRC, but I don't think we've seen a paper trail around it.

I have a suspicion that Jamie Doyle's absence may be an attempt to keep Senior Management and the Board out of the tribunal, as his cross-examination could be telling.

Also his suggestion about a police report for a hate crime - I think it would be unusual for anybody in the public sector to do that without cover from above.

On the paper trail, there was a passing reference to the christmas eve incident in some NHSF minutes in the following spring, in a committee which received other committees minutes, which included an overview of incidents, sthing like 'a hate incident, being dealt with internally'.

(It came up in @KnottyAuty 's policy gathering teamwork threads, & will be somewhere under here https://www.nhsfife.org/about-us/nhs-fife-board/committees-and-groups/ but theres reams & reams of this stuff, & sadly my receipt keeping tends to be what I remember plus untidy heaps here & there.)

edited to add context to first sentence

Shedmistress · 27/07/2025 09:33

I still have figs in my freezer [and strawberries] from 2 summers ago, and have collected a shed load of strawberries, raspberries and huge blackberries from my enormous prick-free blackberry bushes this year. I've already made jam this year and this keeps us in jam year round.

I don't do Pratchett, tried it once and it wasn't for me.

I can't do crochet any more due to the tiny pieces that snap off as you make it making me sneeze.

But I do do gardening, feeding and looking after a gang of semi feral cats in my garden and pottery. Lots of pottery.

Why wouldn't you want to attend a tribunal if you'd done everything by the book? It's a mystery.

SidewaysOtter · 27/07/2025 09:34

@pollyglot Modern Preserver and River Cottage Preserves are books. The first one is written by Kylie Newton.

rebax · 27/07/2025 09:34

Justabaker · 27/07/2025 09:26

@KnottyAuty
How many others wish they’d done that?!

How interesting that it was man who said no. In fact, the only man other than Hapless IT Bod who seems to have gotten within the blast radius.

Remember the tribunal is not trying to establish the full facts.

NHS Fife is just trying to show that their processes were reasonable, and keep anybody who was not directly involved out of the line of fire.

NC is trying to show that it was a sham, and the whole culture of NHS Fife was to back Dr Upton, but needs a loose thread to start pulling on, which could have been Jamie Doyle. I'm sure that his employer has decided it would be more helpful to their case if he was not cross-examined under oath.

Lolichi · 27/07/2025 09:34

ForAllWomen · 27/07/2025 08:17

Anyone else have share tokens for Micheal Foran’s Substack? I recommend signing up - his insight is very compelling and makes sense of tricky evidence.

I have a few interested parties I can send your way as my tokens have gone.

I do - DM me

KnottyAuty · 27/07/2025 09:44

GnomeDePlume · 27/07/2025 08:25

I can't help but feel that NHSF are guilty of over egging the pudding.

The updating of notes to add SP's name to previous incidents. Given that DU is known to exaggerate, did the alleged incidents even actually occur? Was SP involved (if they did occur) or was her name attached as it fitted the narrative?

Did DU get a discreet nudge from above to 'beef up' his notes?

Generally when organisations get themselves in a mess I assume cock up rather than conspiracy. In this case I think it was a conspiracy to cover up a cock up.

And I'll add another 'C', cowardice.

They cocked up in allowing/encouraging DU to use a female changing room. They lacked the organisational courage to say 'we made a mistake'. Individually they were frightened of DU, of his emotional reactions to any slight (real or imagined), of his ability to cause trouble.

So they doubled down on the cock up. Which, of course, just makes the cock up worse.

Interesting angle. While there are lots of cock ups, After part 1 I didn’t think that NHSF had any idea what they were getting into when they aligned themselves with DU. I think they thought only of “the cause” and were played by the individual. They seemed to have been on the back foot the entire time - on the contrary I saw DU as a control freak who tried to manipulate the whole thing?! Aided by some colleagues as confirmed this week.

I was assuming that NHSF got the policy steer from Scotgov, so gender self ID into the changing rooms was a given. It’s just that maybe no one had done it - even though there were 2 or 3 other trans people in the hospital - or were more discrete or they hadn’t met any resistance. So from that POV no one at NHSF management were going to prevent DU from accessing the female CR in A&E. They were following Stonewall law and government policy so felt/feel completely vindicated. And they’ve got arrangements for trans staff that seem to be working out OK….

Into this comes DU. Close to home/school etc The Vic Hospital would be a good place to work. I believe that DU would have to travel/move to work in another equivalent size hospital. So there’s a certain imperative there to make sure the Vic works out nicely. And for DU that included being able to “live as a women” (whatever that means) but we know for sure that it included use of the female CRs. Resistance would be a major problem…

We dont know what happened with the other trans staff and their colleagues, but it seems that DU and SP seem to be pretty equally matched in terms of intensity of their beliefs. How many people on a short rotation would have clocked SP’s quiet “resistance” and persisted with using the CR? Even if it were DU’s “right” according to policy, how many would risk the trouble of asserting that on a 6 month placement? Well if this were a random placement far from home, then it’s maybe less likely have come to a head, but this was potentially DU’s new home patch, and so he couldn’t back down without spoiling the nest for the future? On the other side SP has presumably been using the female CRs without any males in there for her entire 30 year career and is affronted by this change to her home turf. And I suppose she’s thinking this could be the first of many so she’s equally resolute.(Bearing in mind she’s asked her managers two or more times about this and they’ve ignored her concerns). And while she called DU Beth and used female pronouns around the department, when she challenges DU in the CR she had to use reference to man/male to make her point. We know she wasn’t expecting this to cause a major issue, but of course DU’s entire identity hinges on stamping this out, so he starts moving the institution and its processes against her. Notably he doesn’t want the police involved - which to me signalled that he wanted control in the hospital but didn’t want questions from outsiders.

The dispute blows up and staff either pick a side or put their head down. I’m imagining most thought all they had to do was tough it out until March/April 2024 and DU would move on to another placement. But unfortunately NHSF completely botch the suspension process so badly that SP is forced to seek help outside the hospital and this is where things get really difficult for Fife - although they were maybe oblivious to how difficult it was going to get. It’s at this point that SP is hooked up with national support networks, top notch legal advisors and a financial backer.

So from February 2024 everyone is strapped in and NHSF arent politically able to give up even if they wanted to.

We know that NHSF started to get a bit professional about things from there, conducting an IX by GM and LM but they had no hope of stopping the train because ejecting DU from the female CR wasnt ever going to happen. And SP wasnt going to bavk down or run out of money.

Based on DU’s note taking and the apparent note forging, the displays of distress to colleagues and the performance in the tribunal (schooling us from the stand, evasions, sophistry, bringing a squad, physical intimidation of SP’s legal team) gave me the impression of a very determined, clever and controlling individual who wanted to dominate proceedings.I suspect a very different persona was revealed at the Tribunal compared to the lovely kind Beth in raspberry scrubs at work.

Now that we are mainly through Part 2 I’m struggling with the story in my mind. For me the question is - was it incompetence on all fronts played by DU without understanding? Or did individual staff actively collude to hide evidence and avoid disclosure? Or was the Board complicit in instructing that certain emails/files should be held back?

I’ve always assumed that Fife had no idea who exactly they had on their hands until DU was on the stand. And that DU had manipulated & influenced colleagues into acting in his interests rather than Fife’s. I’d assumed lack of disclosure was incompetence. But this week’s evidence has shaken that a bit for me…

Why wouldn’t the IT team just pull everyone’s emails out the back of M365 from the admin portal (this is so easy even I can do it for my staff through Chrome and I’m no IT whizz)?

Why would anyone agree to letting DU prepare his own phone evidence?

These errors are so big I’m struggling to see them as incompetence any more. Surely these are decisions that DU couldn’t influence as an individual?

At which point it looks way more systematic and coming directly from the Board? Not a cock up but a full on cover up?

Sorry for the ramblings. Just trying to process last week’s revelations. What are any of you thinking?

Waitwhat23 · 27/07/2025 09:44

Saw this. Anyone unsurprised by this (and other placards) at Trans Pride this weekend?

I suppose Steph is at least reluctantly acknowledging that you don't see placards like that at women's rights events.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #43
NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #43
Merrymouse · 27/07/2025 09:46

I love the Pratchett concept of witchcraft - that most of the time it's about paying attention to your second thoughts and having 'first sight' - seeing things as they really are.

Also this quote

“Miss Tick sniffed. 'You could say this advice is priceless,' she said. 'Are you listening?'
'Yes,' said Tiffany.
'Good. Now ... if you trust in yourself ...'
'Yes?'
'... and believe in your dreams ...'
'Yes?'
'... and follow your star ...' Miss Tick went on.
'Yes?'
'... you'll still get beaten by people who spent THEIR time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye.”

prh47bridge · 27/07/2025 09:47

FleurFloor · 27/07/2025 08:58

We've seen what happens to heretics!

Stand by for an interminable disciplinary process about which you will be told nothing ...except you can't discuss it with anyone and you may lose your livelihood....

We need to start a secret thread to co-ordinate our stories about @CriticalCondition. We must fabricate the evidence for some terrible violations of MN policy to get her banned permanently. It is clearly unsafe to have her anywhere near a keyboard. Smile

InterrobangsArePureBias · 27/07/2025 09:48

Cismyfatarse · 26/07/2025 20:16

Another Times article

Sandie Peggie tribunal shows how easily injustice takes root

https://www.thetimes.com/article/c67fde0d-64e7-4ec0-a374-839fa3651ec4?shareToken=5725e711b1e3659d442289030a0c2108

Archive version
https://archive.ph/SDqfJ

Spot on for the likeness to Dreyfus. Both that and The Winslow Boy have come to mind regularly.

SternlyMatthews · 27/07/2025 09:48

pp couldnt find the snickers child reference:

NC - did you work together frequently
SP - not often, but on the night of Halloween
NC - can you describe how that went
SP - a child was brought in, appeared to be in anaphylaxis from sweets they had been given
NC - how serious was his condition
SP - very serious, required urgent response from a consultant, Beth and myself
NC - so you had to work together, how was that
SP - we worked together as a doctor and nurse, we gave medications, took observations, monitored to patient's condition
NC - how was that
SP - I thought it was successful

https://archive.is/xkSxy#selection-1125.9-1163.41:~:text=NC%20%2D%20did%20you,it%20was%20successful

Largesso · 27/07/2025 09:52

KnottyAuty · 27/07/2025 09:44

Interesting angle. While there are lots of cock ups, After part 1 I didn’t think that NHSF had any idea what they were getting into when they aligned themselves with DU. I think they thought only of “the cause” and were played by the individual. They seemed to have been on the back foot the entire time - on the contrary I saw DU as a control freak who tried to manipulate the whole thing?! Aided by some colleagues as confirmed this week.

I was assuming that NHSF got the policy steer from Scotgov, so gender self ID into the changing rooms was a given. It’s just that maybe no one had done it - even though there were 2 or 3 other trans people in the hospital - or were more discrete or they hadn’t met any resistance. So from that POV no one at NHSF management were going to prevent DU from accessing the female CR in A&E. They were following Stonewall law and government policy so felt/feel completely vindicated. And they’ve got arrangements for trans staff that seem to be working out OK….

Into this comes DU. Close to home/school etc The Vic Hospital would be a good place to work. I believe that DU would have to travel/move to work in another equivalent size hospital. So there’s a certain imperative there to make sure the Vic works out nicely. And for DU that included being able to “live as a women” (whatever that means) but we know for sure that it included use of the female CRs. Resistance would be a major problem…

We dont know what happened with the other trans staff and their colleagues, but it seems that DU and SP seem to be pretty equally matched in terms of intensity of their beliefs. How many people on a short rotation would have clocked SP’s quiet “resistance” and persisted with using the CR? Even if it were DU’s “right” according to policy, how many would risk the trouble of asserting that on a 6 month placement? Well if this were a random placement far from home, then it’s maybe less likely have come to a head, but this was potentially DU’s new home patch, and so he couldn’t back down without spoiling the nest for the future? On the other side SP has presumably been using the female CRs without any males in there for her entire 30 year career and is affronted by this change to her home turf. And I suppose she’s thinking this could be the first of many so she’s equally resolute.(Bearing in mind she’s asked her managers two or more times about this and they’ve ignored her concerns). And while she called DU Beth and used female pronouns around the department, when she challenges DU in the CR she had to use reference to man/male to make her point. We know she wasn’t expecting this to cause a major issue, but of course DU’s entire identity hinges on stamping this out, so he starts moving the institution and its processes against her. Notably he doesn’t want the police involved - which to me signalled that he wanted control in the hospital but didn’t want questions from outsiders.

The dispute blows up and staff either pick a side or put their head down. I’m imagining most thought all they had to do was tough it out until March/April 2024 and DU would move on to another placement. But unfortunately NHSF completely botch the suspension process so badly that SP is forced to seek help outside the hospital and this is where things get really difficult for Fife - although they were maybe oblivious to how difficult it was going to get. It’s at this point that SP is hooked up with national support networks, top notch legal advisors and a financial backer.

So from February 2024 everyone is strapped in and NHSF arent politically able to give up even if they wanted to.

We know that NHSF started to get a bit professional about things from there, conducting an IX by GM and LM but they had no hope of stopping the train because ejecting DU from the female CR wasnt ever going to happen. And SP wasnt going to bavk down or run out of money.

Based on DU’s note taking and the apparent note forging, the displays of distress to colleagues and the performance in the tribunal (schooling us from the stand, evasions, sophistry, bringing a squad, physical intimidation of SP’s legal team) gave me the impression of a very determined, clever and controlling individual who wanted to dominate proceedings.I suspect a very different persona was revealed at the Tribunal compared to the lovely kind Beth in raspberry scrubs at work.

Now that we are mainly through Part 2 I’m struggling with the story in my mind. For me the question is - was it incompetence on all fronts played by DU without understanding? Or did individual staff actively collude to hide evidence and avoid disclosure? Or was the Board complicit in instructing that certain emails/files should be held back?

I’ve always assumed that Fife had no idea who exactly they had on their hands until DU was on the stand. And that DU had manipulated & influenced colleagues into acting in his interests rather than Fife’s. I’d assumed lack of disclosure was incompetence. But this week’s evidence has shaken that a bit for me…

Why wouldn’t the IT team just pull everyone’s emails out the back of M365 from the admin portal (this is so easy even I can do it for my staff through Chrome and I’m no IT whizz)?

Why would anyone agree to letting DU prepare his own phone evidence?

These errors are so big I’m struggling to see them as incompetence any more. Surely these are decisions that DU couldn’t influence as an individual?

At which point it looks way more systematic and coming directly from the Board? Not a cock up but a full on cover up?

Sorry for the ramblings. Just trying to process last week’s revelations. What are any of you thinking?

I just reread much of SPs testimony and cross and was reminded that DU was not initially named as a second R.

This therefore was forced on NHSF by NC.

JR asked SP about it cross and suggested she added DU as second R ‘out of spite’.

SP answered no it was because he was the one in the f cr

Dead bat (is that the correct cricket analogy) grey rock brilliance.

But basically they didn’t anticipate DU being a R and perhaps hopes they could get away without him even appearing as a witness? I don’t think Rs can refuse to appear?

IDareSay · 27/07/2025 10:00

On scones, it depends on the form of cream:

If clotted cream, then scone, cream jam.
If whipped cream, then scone, jam, cream (it's awesome, try it!)

<gavel>

narniabusiness · 27/07/2025 10:01

KnottyAuty · 27/07/2025 09:44

Interesting angle. While there are lots of cock ups, After part 1 I didn’t think that NHSF had any idea what they were getting into when they aligned themselves with DU. I think they thought only of “the cause” and were played by the individual. They seemed to have been on the back foot the entire time - on the contrary I saw DU as a control freak who tried to manipulate the whole thing?! Aided by some colleagues as confirmed this week.

I was assuming that NHSF got the policy steer from Scotgov, so gender self ID into the changing rooms was a given. It’s just that maybe no one had done it - even though there were 2 or 3 other trans people in the hospital - or were more discrete or they hadn’t met any resistance. So from that POV no one at NHSF management were going to prevent DU from accessing the female CR in A&E. They were following Stonewall law and government policy so felt/feel completely vindicated. And they’ve got arrangements for trans staff that seem to be working out OK….

Into this comes DU. Close to home/school etc The Vic Hospital would be a good place to work. I believe that DU would have to travel/move to work in another equivalent size hospital. So there’s a certain imperative there to make sure the Vic works out nicely. And for DU that included being able to “live as a women” (whatever that means) but we know for sure that it included use of the female CRs. Resistance would be a major problem…

We dont know what happened with the other trans staff and their colleagues, but it seems that DU and SP seem to be pretty equally matched in terms of intensity of their beliefs. How many people on a short rotation would have clocked SP’s quiet “resistance” and persisted with using the CR? Even if it were DU’s “right” according to policy, how many would risk the trouble of asserting that on a 6 month placement? Well if this were a random placement far from home, then it’s maybe less likely have come to a head, but this was potentially DU’s new home patch, and so he couldn’t back down without spoiling the nest for the future? On the other side SP has presumably been using the female CRs without any males in there for her entire 30 year career and is affronted by this change to her home turf. And I suppose she’s thinking this could be the first of many so she’s equally resolute.(Bearing in mind she’s asked her managers two or more times about this and they’ve ignored her concerns). And while she called DU Beth and used female pronouns around the department, when she challenges DU in the CR she had to use reference to man/male to make her point. We know she wasn’t expecting this to cause a major issue, but of course DU’s entire identity hinges on stamping this out, so he starts moving the institution and its processes against her. Notably he doesn’t want the police involved - which to me signalled that he wanted control in the hospital but didn’t want questions from outsiders.

The dispute blows up and staff either pick a side or put their head down. I’m imagining most thought all they had to do was tough it out until March/April 2024 and DU would move on to another placement. But unfortunately NHSF completely botch the suspension process so badly that SP is forced to seek help outside the hospital and this is where things get really difficult for Fife - although they were maybe oblivious to how difficult it was going to get. It’s at this point that SP is hooked up with national support networks, top notch legal advisors and a financial backer.

So from February 2024 everyone is strapped in and NHSF arent politically able to give up even if they wanted to.

We know that NHSF started to get a bit professional about things from there, conducting an IX by GM and LM but they had no hope of stopping the train because ejecting DU from the female CR wasnt ever going to happen. And SP wasnt going to bavk down or run out of money.

Based on DU’s note taking and the apparent note forging, the displays of distress to colleagues and the performance in the tribunal (schooling us from the stand, evasions, sophistry, bringing a squad, physical intimidation of SP’s legal team) gave me the impression of a very determined, clever and controlling individual who wanted to dominate proceedings.I suspect a very different persona was revealed at the Tribunal compared to the lovely kind Beth in raspberry scrubs at work.

Now that we are mainly through Part 2 I’m struggling with the story in my mind. For me the question is - was it incompetence on all fronts played by DU without understanding? Or did individual staff actively collude to hide evidence and avoid disclosure? Or was the Board complicit in instructing that certain emails/files should be held back?

I’ve always assumed that Fife had no idea who exactly they had on their hands until DU was on the stand. And that DU had manipulated & influenced colleagues into acting in his interests rather than Fife’s. I’d assumed lack of disclosure was incompetence. But this week’s evidence has shaken that a bit for me…

Why wouldn’t the IT team just pull everyone’s emails out the back of M365 from the admin portal (this is so easy even I can do it for my staff through Chrome and I’m no IT whizz)?

Why would anyone agree to letting DU prepare his own phone evidence?

These errors are so big I’m struggling to see them as incompetence any more. Surely these are decisions that DU couldn’t influence as an individual?

At which point it looks way more systematic and coming directly from the Board? Not a cock up but a full on cover up?

Sorry for the ramblings. Just trying to process last week’s revelations. What are any of you thinking?

I agree with a lot of your analysis but I think differently on a couple of points
Firstly I would suggest that colleagues did have the measure of Beth and were very much ‘do it to Julia’ (or Sandie) in this case. The HR staff that advised against the continued suspension not having either met Beth or at risk of allegations being made against them.

Secondly on the IT conspiracy or cock-up question, laziness could be one explanation (I’ve had bad experiences with IT staff on the past) or more likely confidentiality. Would IT be allowed to access data containing possible patient info? Could that have been used as an excuse? I’m just musing here.

Bluebootsgreenboots · 27/07/2025 10:02

InterrobangsArePureBias · 27/07/2025 09:48

Archive version
https://archive.ph/SDqfJ

Spot on for the likeness to Dreyfus. Both that and The Winslow Boy have come to mind regularly.

Just plopping back in after days of poor connection. Thanks for keeping the info flowing.
I think the parallels with the Dreyfus affair are interesting and relevant.
So Macron has just declared 12th July ‘Dreyfus Day’. I love the idea of the UK having ‘Peggie Day’ - I just hope she doesn’t have to wait until the year 2156 for it!

BugsyMaroon · 27/07/2025 10:03

Boiledbeetle · 27/07/2025 09:22

No! But I do do my scones dairy jam dairy as I butter them first.

[faints]

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 27/07/2025 10:03

CriticalCondition · 27/07/2025 09:02

Will there be tambourines?

Repent Mother Fucker!

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