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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #43

1000 replies

nauticant · 25/07/2025 15:21

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025

OP posts:
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39
SternlyMatthews · 26/07/2025 18:04

tribunalObserver · 26/07/2025 17:28

Hmm, I thought the crowdfunder was funding counselling, loss of earnings for his wife,... - I thought it would be BU getting the counselling. Is there a reliable source for it being his wife getting it? I rather doubt he'd be up for that myself - it might accidentally be competent!

I couldnt find the comment as the article not given, but there was a fund raiser with a floral theme for Upton which raised about £10k, (some of which was announced as spent on counselling Mrs Upton), but was itself a response to a collection from our side which raised more than £30k for Sandie Peggie; she donated it all to charity nominated for donations for her fathers funeral.

Arran2024 · 26/07/2025 18:06

FatCyclist · 26/07/2025 16:33

I cannot understand why NHS Fife didn’t concede liability & end this case when the IT forensic consultant’s report was submitted as evidence. NHSF will have had this report for months. Surely they understand how damning it is? As well as the shambolic investigations of SP, the failure to consult nursing staff (or even alert them!) that a TIM would be using the CR, etc etc etc. NHSF must surely understand they have no hope of successfully defending this case. They could have saved themselves so much negative publicity by conceding liability. Why have they continued to fight this case?

Not only did they not do that but didnt they say something in the internal staff newsletter like things had not been reported accurately, that the full story hadn't been told, that it would all come out in due course? I wonder who was in overall charge and what they were telling the board? I assume they were relying on the allegations of racism.

BIWI · 26/07/2025 18:11

I think it’s very telling that BU’s crowdfunder has reached just over £5,800 whereas SP’s has raised £38,555!

The intro to BU’s is awful - absolutely nothing about supporting the nurse(s) that he/they might be working with. Just all about doctors.

Totallygripped · 26/07/2025 18:17

GreenFriedTomato · 26/07/2025 17:59

The difference with the two crowdfunders is that Sandie gave all the funds raised to charity.

Maybe Upton donated all his money too and didn't spend it on threats. Maybe...

Didn't spend on threats...!!
Adding bravas to the lyricist of doing the manly walk.

ForAllWomen · 26/07/2025 18:19

Well - what will I fill my time with after Thursday? This is the most thrilling story full of inanities and insanities, absurdities, lies, lies and more lies. And at the heart a woman whose life has changed forever because she said no.

I am absolutely shocked at the witch hunt over this case. Sure it wasn’t ideal if you are a trans advocate for someone to challenge their practice. But not one engaged their brain or thought - every story has two sides. The more I learn the more I can’t comprehend.

I just still cannot comprehend how the legal team at NHS Fife / central NHS legal or the barrister allowed this to get this far.

And on we go. And more stories will be told. And more justice will be done.

Other relevant section from TT in Feb to phone evidence - NC cross. This is end Dec/Jan when Dr. Upton has allegedly run into Sandie in CR.

NC: This is about punishing SP
DU: No not interested in punishment, vengeance, retribution. In justice.

Upton wants justice, he will get justice. This Tribubal will bring justice. As for me, I’d want mercy over justice any day. Justice is unyielding. Upton didn’t know what he asked for.

porridgecake · 26/07/2025 18:22

I feel very sorry for any female patients faced with DU when they are ill and vulnerable.

cigarsmokingwoman · 26/07/2025 18:25

My attempt, to the 'walk of life':

He got the boiler suit,

He got the plumber van,

He got the stubble and a deep voice,

He lookin' like a man.

He got the heavy boots,

And a solid stance,

He says, “I’m one of the ladies” —

But we don’t stand a chance.

🎶 Oh, he do the manly walk,

Yeah, he do the manly walk,

He do the walk, he do the walk,

Yeah, he do the manly walk.

He got the broad physique,

He got the hairy hands,

He says he’s female now,

But it’s not what we planned.

He’s in the changing room,

With a knowing smile,

You say, “Excuse me sir,”

He says, “I’m her — meanwhile…”

🎶 Oh, he do the manly walk,

Yeah, he do the manly walk,

He do the walk, he do the walk,

Yeah, he do the manly walk.

Now Naomi’s in court,

With a trap set tight,

“Does Pete look like a man to you?”

You say, “Well… yeah, that’s right.”

Then she drops the line,

With a lawyer’s grace,

“He says he’s a woman —

You sure about that face?”

🎶 And he do the manly walk,

Yeah, he do the manly walk,

He do the walk, he do the walk,

Yeah, he do the manly walk.

🎸 [instrumental break] 🎸

He ain’t got lipstick,

He ain’t got curls,

But he’s claiming space

That belongs to girls.

Say no out loud,

You’ll be called unkind,

‘Cause Pete the plumber's womanhood

Is all inside his mind.

🎶 Still he do the manly walk,

Oh, he do the manly walk,

He do the walk, he do the walk,

Yeah, he do the manly walk.

🎶 (fade out like original)

He do the walk…

He do the walk…

Pete the plumber… manly walk...

Totallygripped · 26/07/2025 18:25

porridgecake · 26/07/2025 18:22

I feel very sorry for any female patients faced with DU when they are ill and vulnerable.

You and me both...

viques · 26/07/2025 18:30

DuesToTheDirt · 26/07/2025 11:25

If the staff at NHS Fife really can't tell the difference between men and women, that means they should scrap single-sex changing rooms, altogether, right? Is that what they'll say next week? I'm thinking not.

Blimey, I hope they know the difference when bed bound patients need a wee.

Cismyfatarse · 26/07/2025 18:34

Haven’t read this yet…..Behind the Sandie Peggie tribunal in WhatsApps, phone notes and emails

https://www.thetimes.com/article/f30df150-a373-41ce-b2d3-c9c52bd3c666?shareToken=fa3ce5c7235e4f79b429d98221fa6f4d

Needspaceforlego · 26/07/2025 18:34

Another2Cats · 26/07/2025 17:40

I'm not too sure about that. They certainly couldn't tell staff if Upton either did or did not have a GRC. But other than that I don't see what would stop them informing staff that a transwoman was going to be starting work there shortly.

Probably a mish mash of TWAW and nobody will notice.
And if you give staff advance notice your giving them the opportunity to get themselves together and strike or other industrial action.
Fear of nurses walking out is probably part of the reason they wanted Sandie to keep quiet 🤫 stop her drumming up support.

I remain convinced the suspension was about keeping her away from him and it stopped her getting other colleagues support.

They also stamp on her hard as an example, warning, to other nurses. The management seem shit scared of him.

He'll move on, Fife finish investigating, Sandies cleared all back to normal like nothing has happened!

They never gave it a thought that Sandie would take it to court or they'd be sitting making arses of themselves in the hotseat saying they don't know what sex they are.

And you know what thank God Sandie took it further, thank God for her amazing backer. Because without both of them Upton would eventually move on and the problem moves on it doesn't just go away.

Who knows whats really going on in his head MH issues or is it a pure fetish, but hes not someone I would want to be sharing a tiny changing room with.

mrshoho · 26/07/2025 18:39

Lunde · 26/07/2025 17:37

I also wonder if DU recycled some notes that he had kept on other people at a previous hospital.

Some of the early notes were very vague along the lines of "didn't smile at me" or "gave me a look that I interpreted as hostile"

IIRC on one of the notes SP's name had been added retrospectively.

But how did he manage to get an edit date so far before the original creation datecof the notes? Did he just fuck up when he was doctoring? How inept is this person?

Pharos · 26/07/2025 18:42

Another Pratchett fan here.
I know his daughter’s gone down the ´be kind/TWAW’ route and says he would have too but the witches, umpteen female characters and particularly Monstrous Regiment suggest otherwise.
Discworld’s women are the mentally strongest and most resourceful in all of his books - whatever species they are, never mind identify as…

InterrobangsArePureBias · 26/07/2025 18:43

Cismyfatarse · 26/07/2025 18:34

Haven’t read this yet…..Behind the Sandie Peggie tribunal in WhatsApps, phone notes and emails

https://www.thetimes.com/article/f30df150-a373-41ce-b2d3-c9c52bd3c666?shareToken=fa3ce5c7235e4f79b429d98221fa6f4d

Good grief.

Quotation:

On December 30, 2023, days after the Christmas Eve row between Peggie and Upton, Doyle emailed a number of colleagues to tell them he had found the doctor’s initial formal report of the incident, which it emerged had been typed by the A&E consultant Kate Searle, “very difficult” to read.
The report, known within the Scottish NHS as a Datix, described a “hate incident” concerning “transgender identity” and claimed that Peggie’s “aggressive and confrontational manner” was an “escalation of prior behaviours”.
He endorsed placing Peggie on “special leave”, meaning she could not return to work, and described the incident as a “potential hate crime” that was “not acceptable” and not to be “tolerated in any circumstance”.
Doyle added: “Such incidents should also be reported to Police Scotland, which I believe the staff member raising [the] complaint has been advised to consider, and we could also support if needed.”

Totallygripped · 26/07/2025 18:44

viques · 26/07/2025 18:30

Blimey, I hope they know the difference when bed bound patients need a wee.

Off topic but from my experience with ancient but not bed bound mother in acute medical ward of a major London teaching hospital (as seen on TV) it's all OK anyway because of pad so just go in that. Which is probably discussed on other threads...

NebulousSupportPostcard · 26/07/2025 18:47

Doyle gets to stay home with the men while everyone else is called as a witness, I see.

Angelabdc · 26/07/2025 18:48

Angelabdc · 25/07/2025 18:50

JR Did u know she held GC views MC Yes, I'd heard her articulate them in non-clin areas

Tribunal Tweets

@tribunaltweets
·
4h

MC I'd heard her say it's not poss to change sex JR When met DU? MC At induction teaching session as a F2 dr

After hearing the testimony from Dr Maggie Currer, Sandie Peggie has just risen in my estimation. Having the guts to express your convictions in an NHS teaching session is exceptional. How many of us have sat and sulked through EDI training too scared to express an opinion in case it backfires?

Sorry I read this wrongly- there does not seem to be an easy way to delete a post 😬

tribunalObserver · 26/07/2025 18:49

Cismyfatarse · 26/07/2025 18:34

Haven’t read this yet…..Behind the Sandie Peggie tribunal in WhatsApps, phone notes and emails

https://www.thetimes.com/article/f30df150-a373-41ce-b2d3-c9c52bd3c666?shareToken=fa3ce5c7235e4f79b429d98221fa6f4d

Ah, so maybe the Lindsey Nicoll giving evidence on Monday is the Lindsay from the chat? Different spelling but that might be the Times' transcription error.

Cismyfatarse · 26/07/2025 18:51

Why no Doyle giving evidence???

PronounssheRa · 26/07/2025 18:53

NebulousSupportPostcard · 26/07/2025 18:47

Doyle gets to stay home with the men while everyone else is called as a witness, I see.

Yeah he is a notable absence as a witness for Fife. Curious why he wasn't called.

Sugarplumfairycakes1 · 26/07/2025 18:57

Pharos · 26/07/2025 18:42

Another Pratchett fan here.
I know his daughter’s gone down the ´be kind/TWAW’ route and says he would have too but the witches, umpteen female characters and particularly Monstrous Regiment suggest otherwise.
Discworld’s women are the mentally strongest and most resourceful in all of his books - whatever species they are, never mind identify as…

I agree with this. Sir Terry is one of the less than an handful of male writers who write female characters really well. I certainly recognise little bits of myself in most of his female characters.. ...and Granny Weatherwax is my fictional absolute hero.

Watchingfromadistance · 26/07/2025 18:57

Cismyfatarse · 26/07/2025 18:34

Haven’t read this yet…..Behind the Sandie Peggie tribunal in WhatsApps, phone notes and emails

https://www.thetimes.com/article/f30df150-a373-41ce-b2d3-c9c52bd3c666?shareToken=fa3ce5c7235e4f79b429d98221fa6f4d

@Cismyfatarse Thank you for sharing - lost for words (again).

Jacopo · 26/07/2025 18:59

We can be sure that if the respondents felt calling Jamie Doyle would help their case they would have called him as a witness. Which begs the question what was he likely to say that would give an even worse impression than the people they did call - the Isla Bumbas and the Kate Searles? Interesting indeed.

Bannedontherun · 26/07/2025 18:59

PronounssheRa · 26/07/2025 18:53

Yeah he is a notable absence as a witness for Fife. Curious why he wasn't called.

Not so sure about Scotland but in England at employment tribunals and other courts. It is usual only to invite witnesses, than “call” them.

and afaik one cannot order someone in to a tribunal, except for where they submitted a witness statement.

frenchnoodle · 26/07/2025 19:02

Pharos · 26/07/2025 18:42

Another Pratchett fan here.
I know his daughter’s gone down the ´be kind/TWAW’ route and says he would have too but the witches, umpteen female characters and particularly Monstrous Regiment suggest otherwise.
Discworld’s women are the mentally strongest and most resourceful in all of his books - whatever species they are, never mind identify as…

Well nobody can say what he would have done. But he was good friends with Neil Gaiman and other TWAW Preachers. His daughter knew him better than anyone.

That said he wasn't exactly of sound mind in his last years, so who knows.

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