NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #42

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025

seems to mean DrU asked MC if she was aware he was trans?

Bet they wish they'd employed some else from the 53 applicants. Anyone else.

From TT

MC I'd heard her say it's not poss to change sex

Fifer : Fun fact. It's aboot 20 mile as the craw flees, atween the Vic and the Edinburgh School of Medicine, where the modern scientific understanding of Human Anatomy was first developed in detail.

JR When met DU?
MC At induction teaching session as a F2 dr
JR Re recruitment to ED
MC Its a jr clinical fellow post. A non- clin training role who may want to pursue ED or get more experience. Is advertised as a 12 month standalone post. We usually have a lot of applicants
JR Who interviewed?
MC Me and another colleague. We interviewed 53 for 18 posts. Pre-employment checks done by HR including NHS Scotland checks, occ health to ensure ppl adeq protected. More staright forward if worked here before. references checked - a min of 2. I always check the GMC registaation in case have restrictions or issues we're not made aware.
JR Disclosure Scot check?
MC They'll look for prev names or any issues that might have a bearing on seeing vulnerable adults and children

JR Email from Doyle on 18.08 re Sensitive:
CR. Who had u been in touch with?
MC With IB. It says Sept but was 28 August.
JR What convo did u have?
MC I contacted IB to ensure what we were doing was appropriate. As a trans indiv was entitled to use the bathroom of the gender

IB in the path of the bus again..

Previous names, you say?

An aside as I’m desperately trying to catch up and am a long way behind, but does anyone else hear DU’s creepy notes in Trump’s voice? “Sad times”!

I had wondered

meaning = Yes of course, bleeding obvious but I have been too polite to raise it first.

MC they Id as. She made me aware we had no written policy in Fife but this was correct. But DU had the right to use the F facilities. We discussed g neutral facilities and ? whether these wld be acceptable [sound bad]
JR Any convos w anyone else?

And straight under

And it's true. Same as water is wet

The GMC are very hot on probity. In my opinion the evidence we have seen of Upton sexing up his dodgy dossier & lying under oath is sufficient to have him struck off.

Yes they could be. The case i mentioned earlier that i was involved in was a civil case. Criminality is definitely a higher bar to get over in terms of evidence. Dishonesty in a civil case is on the balance of probabilities. When your profession demands honesty & integrity, to maintain your licence to do your job (any profession that has a regulating body that you must register with to be licensed), a finding of dishonesty in a civil case is enough to warrant a referral to the regulator & they’ll determine from the referral (which you’d provide with evidence from the judgement etc.) if that’s enough to look at their fitness to practice.

My case was fraud, with a finding of fundamental dishonesty against the individual. Fraud itself can be criminal, and we could refer onwards to police etc. But we were mainly concerned with getting the money back we were duped out of paying, as well as costs, to then report to his regulator. It’s quite a lengthy process but we’re at the end point & just waiting on the outcome of the referral to the regulator.

Note MC's assumption TIMs had right to use women's facilities. IB just confirmed this, despite there being no actual policy.

Re checks: MC said nothing showed up in checks, so name=??

I do now! 😂😂😂

From TT

MC There was nothing in the checks
JR When aware of T status?
MC Before interview. We had a brief convo and asked if was aware was trans. I answered I had wondered.

Fifer : wow, the first person that even suspected Dr Upton was male. She must have been tae specsaves doon the Mercat shops

JR When did this happen?
MC Sometime during the recruitment process, I cant remember exactly
JR Email from Doyle on 18.08 re Sensitive:
CR. Who had u been in touch with?
MC With IB. It says Sept but was 28 August.
JR What convo did u have?
MC I contacted IB to ensure what we were doing was appropriate. As a trans indiv was entitled to use the bathroom of the gender they Id as. She made me aware we had no written policy in Fife but this was correct. But DU had the right to use the F facilities. We discussed g neutral facilities and ? whether these wld be acceptable [sound bad]
JR Any convos w anyone else
MC Had a convo w other consultants that checking doing the right thing. I brought up IBs comments
JR ANy convos w nursing staff?
MC Not prior to convo w IB. My recollection of timing unclear. Talked to ED who had also had the same info from IB

Is 'its not possible to change sex' a GC view?
I'd have thought that's just a fact that the vast majority of people agree with.
GC views are generally about GI.

How seriously is this taken in a civil matters?

I suppose I'm thinking about the fact that Helen Webberley was only struck off because she didn't renew her license in time.

I'm hesitant to make assumptions about what the GMC think are 'strike-offable' offences.

Oh for goodness sake, 'it's not possible to change sex' is not 'GC views', it's the truth. I do wish 'GC views' didn't come into this tbh.

MC Had a convo w other consultants that checking doing the right thing. I brought up IBs comments
JR ANy convos w nursing staff?
MC Not prior to convo w IB. My recollection of timing unclear. Talked to ED who had also had the same info from IB

Doing NC's work for her there!

And with a head tilt

And very moderately in the circumstances. It might be expedient to point out that had JR not used every stalling tactic in the book to interrupt yesterdays x-exam then this predicament wouldn't have arisen in the first place.

'Objection! Pronoun!' every two minutes - esp when this was long ago resolved and agreed - looks like pulling out the last stops of every dirty tactic in the book JR is willing to use to defend her client. Now she's crying 'flight back on Thursday'.

Fuck off. Is she a professional or isn't she? (Rhetorical question).

MC I was aware nursing staff had raised this issue but I didnt know who this was.
JR What wld u say re the boards approach re GI?
MC Not my experience. Considered on a case by case basis.
JR WHat factors relevant to this? MC Um. From ED perspective this

Before DrU even started using the women's CR?
Also 'nursing staff' not a nurse, but that might be trancription.

"As a trans indiv was entitled to use the bathroom of the gender they Id as."

Use of the word 'bathroom' signifying that this advice comes from no UK legislation.

I think the invoice would go to the instructing solicitor.

hasnt arisen freq. We'd have a disc re feelings and balance the risk to the individual and concerns by other indivs. Where they are in the process of transitioning whilst being under no oblig to reveal their medical infor. These are the factors we'd consider

Sounds like MC has re-read? read? the EA and is repeating chunks of it eg 'in process of transitioning' 'whilst being under no oblig to reveal their medical infor'