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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Katy Montgomerie

318 replies

niadainud · 24/07/2025 19:35

Just wondering what people think about her. I was sent a link by someone, and I do occasionally try to watch the views of pro-trans people for "balance", but I really struggled with this one.

I find her excessively pleased with herself, incoherent, ageist and of course prone to flinging around insults such as "TERF", "transphone" and "bigot" every few minutes.

I'm not quite sure what gives her the confidence to "diss" people like Helen Joyce, Richard Dawkins et al, as if they're idiots and she is some sort of intellectual giant.

She says things like this: "The UK's Supreme Court ruled on "biological sex", but they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. The "Gender Critical" position on biology is just factually wrong. Finally hundreds of experts in the field come together to call out all this anti-science rubbish"

Other than being trans herself, does she have any justifiable claim to the superior knowledge she purports to have?

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Helleofabore · 24/07/2025 21:28

Wasn’t Montgomery one of the male twitter users mocking the noises women make on the toilet?

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 24/07/2025 21:28

ArabellaScott · 24/07/2025 21:22

As far as I understand it, there are some ways that if one is logged into a google work account, one's username is potentially visible to the owner of the google doc. But I don't understand it very well. I don't click on them, just in case.

Thank you!

I would now know to avoid them in future because of that post, but I did still click on the TT one with all the news links handily in one place

niadainud · 24/07/2025 21:28

ArabellaScott · 24/07/2025 21:09

It runs on binary coding, so highly likely.

Haha!😁

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GingerBeverage · 24/07/2025 21:30

I'm not quite sure what gives her the confidence to "diss" people like Helen Joyce, Richard Dawkins et al, as if they're idiots and she is some sort of intellectual giant.

Probably just a result of playing bass.

Helleofabore · 24/07/2025 21:35

TheRoundestRobin · 24/07/2025 21:14

The thing is though, I consider myself as GC as they come (though not as articulate or well-informed as some on this board) but I struggle to define what a woman is. I mean, it's an adult human female, but what's a female? It's not just about chromosomes, because variations from XX/XY are relatively common (moreso than variations in the number of limbs for example, I would have thought). And it's not just about fertility and reproduction because not everybody is fertile (someone upthread said that 97% of people are/will be/have been fertile, but that seems high based on my own small social circle and the number of couples who have struggled with infertility.)
So how do we define "female"?

A female person has a body formed around the production of large gametes regardless of whether those gametes ever have, are or ever will be produced.

It isn’t just about chromosomes.

However, it does involve understanding what body parts a person has. If a person has ovaries (or ovary tissue if no fully formed gonads) they are female. If no fully formed gonads are present, a specialist will consider what gonad tissue is there and make a decision. Along with looking at genes etc.

Owwasme · 24/07/2025 21:38

Ah, good old Colin. DMd me a few times on X, rather hysterical. Truly batshit.

Katy Montgomerie
Katy Montgomerie
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/07/2025 21:42

OK, so there are 38 signatories to that letter. I would not call that a sizeable number. I have Googled them all and found all but two of them. Two of them appear not to have any online presence, which is a bit sus.

Of those 38:

  1. At least 19, i.e. at least half of them, are not British. A handful are non-Brits currently working in the UK, but many of them are Americans and Canadians who may never have even set foot on British soil, for all we know. Why are they interfering in British democracy?
  2. About half of them, as far as I can tell, are men. Some of the ones with female names are TIMs. So none of them have any particular skin in the game with regard to the protection of women's safety, privacy and dignity, and some of them have a personal vested interest in being allowed to cross women's boundaries.
  3. In a couple of cases I was not able to identify what their academic specialism is at all. There seem to be quite a few Andrew Macks with PhDs so no idea whether this is the British microbiologist, the American physicist or the one researching avian window strikes.
  4. Many of the people on this list do not appear to have any medical qualifications at all. There are a couple of mathematicians and more sexologists and gender studies PhDs than you can shake a stick at though.
  5. Of the ones who are medical doctors, many of them seem to be in a completely unrelated discipline. I'm a lawyer, I don't know anything about mergers and acquisitions, and I wouldn't get a conveyancing lawyer to handle my divorce. So I'm not sure that the signatures of doctors working in virology, orthopaedic surgery or tropical medicine really lend much weight to a letter which mostly seems to focus on disorders of sexual development. I don't seem to see any doctors who specialise in reproductive medicine or endocrinology on this list, for example.
  6. Two of the signatories are trans identifying and work for GIDS.
  7. Of the female signatories, almost none of them are British. The female signatories seem to be made up almost exclusively of flying monkeys from the US and Canada with PhDs in gender studies.

I don't like to play the player rather than the ball, but this really isn't a very serious list. If the statements being made in the letter were correct, surely the list of signatories would be much longer and include more people with the right credentials, i.e. people actually working in a relevant area of medicine.

It's also not a very long list. The UK has a population of 67 million people, including over 188,000 doctors, and I could count the ones who signed this letter on my fingers. It appears to be seven at the most, including a couple of unconfirmed possibles. Two of those seven are trans identifying males and a couple of others practise in a completely irrelevant specialism.

The letter itself is less than 1000 words long and can broadly be divided into three sections.

The first section focuses on disorders of sexual development in an attempt to argue that sex is not binary and that therefore biological sex is an unsafe basis on which to make public policy. As far as I can tell none of the signatories are specialists in disorders of sexual development. The letter completely ignores the fact that for close to 100% of the population sex is completely and unambiguously binary, and that for the very tiny minority of people who actually have a disorder of sexual development, the Supreme Court judgment changes absolutely nothing. It neither creates nor resolves any problems for them.

The second section focuses on trans people and how they may alter their bodies with cross sex hormones and surgery. It goes into some detail about how this has an impact on their medical needs. This is true, but none of what is said in this part of the letter is in any way relevant to the Supreme Court judgment.

The third section claims that biological sex is only relevant in the context of fertility and therefore has little impact on daily life and should not be used as a basis for governing access to single sex spaces. This is, put plainly, wrong. It completely ignores the lived experience of women whose lives have been impacted in a great many ways by their biological sex. It is notable that almost all of the British signatories to the letter are men who have absolutely no frame of reference for what it is like to live as a woman, and almost all the female signatories are American or Canadian and have absolutely no frame of reference for what it is like to live in a country where women actually have equal rights and are allowed to say no to men. It's absolutely laughable for this hodge-podge of no-marks to make statements such as, "We are concerned that the recent ruling, and the government’s adoption of the EHRC’s interim update does not advance women’s rights, but introduces new risks for many members of our society, including cisgender women" when almost half of them are men who quite plainly don't give a shit about women's rights, and about a quarter of them live in a country where women don't have reliable access to abortions or the right to paid maternity leave.

They finish the letter by demanding that the government takes action "to restore the rights of trans & non-binary people to access toilets and other spaces that are essential to daily life". Well, first of all, no rights can be restored because no rights have been lost. Secondly, non binary people have exactly the same access to toilets and other spaces as they always did. Non-binary people are either male or female, like every other bugger. Non-binary people were not recognised in UK law prior to the Supreme Court judgment and they are still not recognised in UK law after it. If what they are actually demanding is for the government to legislate to erase female people as a distinct category in law, they need to make it clear that that is what they are demanding.

Anyway, that was far more attention than this pratfall of clowns deserved and frankly they can all fucking piss off.

Wimby · 24/07/2025 21:44

Head over to KF (with a VPN, UK is now blocked), they enjoy the antics of Colin. He’s a fruitcake. Litigation and L’s thread has plenty on him.

I refuse to call that misogynistic person a woman.

WarriorN · 24/07/2025 21:45

Colin just moans and pouts a lot to gain the monetisation to get plastic surgery

was a failed heavy metal musician iirc

Wimby · 24/07/2025 21:45

Owwasme · 24/07/2025 21:38

Ah, good old Colin. DMd me a few times on X, rather hysterical. Truly batshit.

He bickered with me too, blocked me now sadly.

niadainud · 24/07/2025 21:53

DuesToTheDirt · 24/07/2025 21:11

Sex is binary. DSDs don't change that.

So, some figures. The percentage of people with DSDs is very small, though noone seems to know how small - one paper says "Estimates of incidence range from more than 1 in 100 to less than 1 in 5,000 births". A huge variation in figures. One organisation (dsdfamilies,org) claims "Every year in the UK, approximately 150 children are diagnosed with differences of sex
development (DSD) – and that means there are approximately 2,300 children living with DSD conditions in the UK." Tiny numbers.

Then we have the percentage of trans people. Again, estimates vary between perhaps 0.5 and 2% and many rely on poor data.

It is the trans community pushing the argument that sex is not binary, because it would benefit them. It isn't people with DSDs who push this argument. So, do trans people have some kind of gender dysphoria because they have DSDs? No, they don't. One paper claims that "Gender dysphoria generally affects between 8.5-20% of individuals with DSDs, depending on the type of DSD". I haven't found any figures for the percentage of DSDs among people who say they are trans. However, given that the incidence of trans people is rising rapidly, while I expect DSDs remain fairly constant (though rates of diagnosis and treatment may vary) I cannot imagine there is much of a link. If there was, I'm sure they would be lining up to prove it.

I'm not linking all the papers, you can hunt them out if you want from the phrases I've quoted.

Basically, sex is binary and in many situations it matters. People with DSDs are still male or female. Watch an interview with Caster Semanya and tell me if you think he is female. Watch Imane Khelif boxing and tell me if you think he is female. Watch their behaviour and tell me if they think they're female. (Hint, they really don't.) Trans people are still male or female. How many females are convicted of sexual assault, rape, violence, indecent exposure? And how many trans-identifying men? Whatever is going on in their heads, it is not reflected in their behaviour.

Sorry, that was longer than expected!

I should probably clarify, you don't need to convince me. I'm absolutely gender critical.

Unfortunately some people with DSDs do very much push this argument, although I'm not sure how representative they are statistically. Quite a few of them identify as trans, too. Personally I think it's nonsense.

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SternJoyousBeev2 · 24/07/2025 21:55

He’s a nasty misogynistic prick and a grifter.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/07/2025 21:58

Just to add to my little rant, can we all just take a moment to do a special slow hand clap for academic "feminists" in the US, a country where a braindead woman was recently kept on life support for several months against the wishes of her family because doctors apparently weren't sure whether Georgia law allowed them to switch her off when her unborn child still had a heartbeat, who are wasting time and brain cells protesting (checks notes) against the fact that women in the UK, which is on a completely different continent, are recognised in law and have sex based rights?

SilkCottonTree · 24/07/2025 22:07

niadainud · 24/07/2025 19:48

I KNOW HE'S A MAN!!!!

Why do you say he is a wanker?

I just want to know whether I can trust my judgement that he's spouting a load of crap.

The fact you are calling him 'her' and 'she' makes me think you are just trying to rile people up..

niadainud · 24/07/2025 22:09

Helleofabore · 24/07/2025 21:35

A female person has a body formed around the production of large gametes regardless of whether those gametes ever have, are or ever will be produced.

It isn’t just about chromosomes.

However, it does involve understanding what body parts a person has. If a person has ovaries (or ovary tissue if no fully formed gonads) they are female. If no fully formed gonads are present, a specialist will consider what gonad tissue is there and make a decision. Along with looking at genes etc.

And phenotype. You can have XY chromosomes, "streak gonads" and a womb and vagina.

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niadainud · 24/07/2025 22:11

SilkCottonTree · 24/07/2025 22:07

The fact you are calling him 'her' and 'she' makes me think you are just trying to rile people up..

Well you're completely wrong there and it should be 100% clear from my other posts that that's not the case, so I assume you haven't read them. I've even explained why I did that.

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niadainud · 24/07/2025 22:15

Owwasme · 24/07/2025 21:38

Ah, good old Colin. DMd me a few times on X, rather hysterical. Truly batshit.

So this is KM in their previous incarnation?

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puffyisgood · 24/07/2025 22:18

niadainud · 24/07/2025 22:11

Well you're completely wrong there and it should be 100% clear from my other posts that that's not the case, so I assume you haven't read them. I've even explained why I did that.

Using the correct language is important though because most on here, I suspect, know very little about the work of Ms Montgomerie, I certainly don't, but one of the few things that I can say with absolutely certainly, every utterance from his booming voice and every centimetre of his hulking frame screams it, if that he's a man. May well for all I know be a very nice, very noble, etc etc man, but a man for definite.

niadainud · 24/07/2025 22:26

@MissScarletInTheBallroom - thanks, that was very interesting and informative.

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BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 24/07/2025 22:26

niadainud · 24/07/2025 21:53

I should probably clarify, you don't need to convince me. I'm absolutely gender critical.

Unfortunately some people with DSDs do very much push this argument, although I'm not sure how representative they are statistically. Quite a few of them identify as trans, too. Personally I think it's nonsense.

Unfortunately some people with DSDs do very much push this argument, although I'm not sure how representative they are statistically. Quite a few of them identify as trans, too. Personally I think it's nonsense.

Rightly or wrongly, and only because of the recent TRA rubbish argument that trans might be a form of DSD of the brain or some such equally laughable shite, if a trans identified person told me they had a DSD, or made any link between DSDs and their trans identity I'd be very sceptical, and it is extremely unlike me to question someone's medical condition.

ETA: If any other person for whatever reason told me they had a DSD I'd have no reason to question it.

LadyQuackBeth · 24/07/2025 22:27

I know there is a brilliant post refuting the points, but sometimes it's worth looking in more detail, trying to understand the argument. Nobody should win with a poor hand just because they can bluff better than you. You claim not to understand but I think you will be able to see the flaw in the argument they are making enough not to have to give up when faced with the word salad.

If somebody tries to confound you by bringing out the bimodal distribution argument, just ask and think about what is on the axes. The x axis would have to be a continuum with people who are 100% female making up a tiny % on one end, next to people 1% female and 99% male, next to 2% female and 98% male.... There is absolutely no formula to calculate this measure, particularly one without offending almost everyone relying on sexist stereotypes, that you could put on that axis.

If this distribution was real, we would have to be able to place everyone along that axis, the y axis on a bimodal distribution is just count/proportion. Where would they put you, where would Katy put himself?

The irony is, that if there was such a measure, taking all the "variables" into account like height, face hair, shoulders etc. the transwomen would be normally distributed within the "male" curve.

niadainud · 24/07/2025 22:28

Wimby · 24/07/2025 21:44

Head over to KF (with a VPN, UK is now blocked), they enjoy the antics of Colin. He’s a fruitcake. Litigation and L’s thread has plenty on him.

I refuse to call that misogynistic person a woman.

What's KF? And who is L?

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Helleofabore · 24/07/2025 22:30

niadainud · 24/07/2025 22:09

And phenotype. You can have XY chromosomes, "streak gonads" and a womb and vagina.

Are those ‘streak gonads’ testes or ovaries? Either way, and as you say, phenotype is to be considered. Obviously, phenotype is what I referred to when I mentioned ‘body parts’ .

I would expect a specialist to take everything into account and make a decision. Because a body that doesn’t produce testosterone to masculinise at all will need special consideration and likely specialised treatment. Also, If there are special specific laws and policies needed to protect this specific group they should have those.

Why should any group’s medical condition be used politically to destabilise established science? Particularly to leverage special privileges for a group of male people who don’t have a DSD where they do not have a body producing testosterone.

niadainud · 24/07/2025 22:33

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 24/07/2025 22:26

Unfortunately some people with DSDs do very much push this argument, although I'm not sure how representative they are statistically. Quite a few of them identify as trans, too. Personally I think it's nonsense.

Rightly or wrongly, and only because of the recent TRA rubbish argument that trans might be a form of DSD of the brain or some such equally laughable shite, if a trans identified person told me they had a DSD, or made any link between DSDs and their trans identity I'd be very sceptical, and it is extremely unlike me to question someone's medical condition.

ETA: If any other person for whatever reason told me they had a DSD I'd have no reason to question it.

Edited

I am sceptical, but several of these people have made a career out of being intersex (I mean that literally, not hyperbolically) and written doctoral theses on it, so that's taking things quite far if it is indeed deception.

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BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 24/07/2025 22:35

niadainud · 24/07/2025 22:33

I am sceptical, but several of these people have made a career out of being intersex (I mean that literally, not hyperbolically) and written doctoral theses on it, so that's taking things quite far if it is indeed deception.

I'd be particularly sceptical if they were describing themselves as intersex.

Are these people doing their theses in gender studies or related fields? If so the scepticism becomes even more acute.

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