"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

Yes you did.

You told me that it doesn’t affect me.

Who the heck are you to tell me it doesn’t affect me!!!!!

No, I didn't say that at all. Not sure why you are imagining that I did.

What I said was:

The existence of a minority of people who are trans makes absolutely no comment on your experience whatsoever, or the experience of non trans women in general.

I've said absolutely nothing whatsoever about your experience, nor does the mere existence of a minority of people who happen to be trans say anything whatsoever about your experience.

@Tandora

You haven't responded to why you keep trying to connect women who don’t want bio men in their same sex space to racism!

I’m furious you would say this

I'm not sure what you think I said or what you are furious about, as you don't seem to be following my posts.

Very satisfying to see that Tandora is still cutting & pasting their multidimensional generic ‘but trans/DSD/research’ assertions on this thread. It’s kept the nonsense away from the thread they were trying to derail.

This is the Kelly Jay Keen who advises landlords not to provide accommodation trans people, and employers not to give jobs to trans people, solely on their trans status right?

I'm not surprised New Zealand don't welcome such explicit and egregious transphobia in their country.

@Tandora

Ok let’s just stick to the first issue, I responded about your racism and ‘green people’ allegations.

You have connected racism a few times on different threads to people who don’t want to have biological males in single sex women’s spaces.

Can you see this is insulting?

Okay. I take it that in these situations you are saying that sex is irrelevant and instead organs are the more important factor.

If organ-specific care is different from sex-specific care, does this mean that organs do not determine the sex of a person?

It's exactly this.

Despite what some are saying on this thread, most trans identifying men do want the sex binary to be recognised and used for single sex space. They just want to be the exception. They want reality to match their fantasy and be able to use the space as women, not because sex is complicated.

Allies and trans identifying women are confusing matter by pretending that sex itself is complicated or irrelevant.

By saying we cannot know a persons sex or gender identity until we are told, these people are acknowledging that these trans identifying men do not pass, and they aren't there because they are seen as women.

It wasn't insulting at all. I was using an analogy in a discussion with a poster to highlight how unreasonable the questions she was asking me were.

It is actually worse than that.

By using the terminology that @Tandora demands that we use.

It not only puts the onus on the vulnerable person, but the statement itself is not only nebulous and could allow DU (in this case) to claim that it was because of discrimination, but the use of the word uncomfortable allows him to override the patients needs by saying that the patient was unclear and as a doctor he carried on in what he "knew" was the best interests of the patient.

So nobody should have to use the phase “I’m not comfortable” because someone that wants to abuse their position could use it to do even more damage.

No. People have the absolute right to refuse care - (as long as they have mental capacity).

I think they should also have the right to request alternative care. Doesn't require the use of the word comfortable, pick any words you like.

There's just no need to make personal comments about someone else's body/person.

the women are substantially more privileged now. Thanks to female centred policies. Thanks to feminism, which centres females.

why were single sex spaces created in the first place?

What sex are nonbinary people ?

I prefer biological women to do my pap smears because in my experience, people who have their own (nature-made) vagina are better at making it a more comfortable experience (both in bedside manner and physical insertion of speculum).

If I'm checking in at my new OBGYN and want that I can't apparently request a female doctor because it won't automatically get me someone with a vagina anymore.

It's already a stressful and bit embarrassing procedure for many women, it's made harder not being able to trust that the word female in that situation doesn't mean biological woman to doctors like Dr Upton.

Edited to add:

@tandora If I ask for same sex care, do you think I will get a biological woman vagina if you believe sex isn't binary?

But they are not refusing care.

They are asking (as per the law) that the person performing the intimate care is of the correct and desired sex.
Both men and women are allowed to do this and this means being able to use the correct language so that they can specifically request something without someones feelings getting in the way.

And if a Drs skin isn't thick enough to put their patient first then they are in the wrong profession.

Horrible edit fail! with a vagina.

You could specifically request what you need simply by asking for another female doctor. 'Please I would like another doctor, a woman, to perform this procedure. Thank you.'

I cannot understand why you are finding this so hard to accept.

,"it's made harder not being able to trust that the word female in that situation doesn't mean biological woman to doctors like Dr Upton."

To doctors like "I am biologically female" Upton.

So you're condoning state sanctioned violence against women because you disagree with their political views?

And you're on a feminist discussion board because...?

I think it's because the patient has already specified female doctor. And it's making an already stressful situation more stressful for the patient to have to risk being called transphobic for rejecting the trans woman doctor.

But you have now used the words "female" and "woman" after spending many many threads telling us that TWAW, that DU is a woman and redefining sex.

So you have not only just contradicted yourself but have caused harm to the trans person that you are so desperate to protect.

Right but DU understands herself to be a female doctor.

No the argument was in response to another poster who insisted she had to say to the doctor:

"I want a female doctor, and you are male".

I was arguing that there was absolutely no need for her to pass judgement on the Dr's body/ person by calling her male.

Popped away to make a lasagne and not surprised in the slightest to see this unanswered.

Along with would Tandora and co affirm an anorexic person as fat? Also yet to see a proper explanation on why you can identify as the opposite sex but not age or race. Because there’s no lawsuits or as many as trans sex or summat. The mind boggles.