"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

I've never seen this, I think it's a highly unlikely scenario. If I thought someone was following a child into a toilet to prey on them I would try to intervene.

@Tandora

It is not racist to tell any biological man to keep out of the women’s changing room.

It is not transphobic to tell any biological man to stay out of the women’s changing room.
It is not sexist to tell any biological man to stay out of women’s changing rooms.

I am stunned at the lack of comprehension regarding single sex spaces.

Isn’t that just ‘your perception’ ?

@Tandora

Why are you trying to discuss whether VAWG is due to society or Karotypes in regard to keeping provision of single sex spaces?

The fact is men, as a group, are dangerous towards women and girls. Whilst men are a danger they all need to stay out.

This post illustrates how you misunderstand, confuse and manipulate the ideas around sex and gender.

And a wee bit of DARVO, accusing me of dogma.

Feminism centres females and their physical needs only.

you can accuse us of not being feminist but it holds no weight when you can’t tell us who is female and who is male.

This isn't true at all. It's easy to identify a cisgender woman, they are women who are female since birth.

What sex are non binary people?

Which group of people is feminism for?

But you said "It's not dangerous at all to say that you shouldn't misgender a trans person to their face. It's a principle of basic common decency."

If you are going to intervene, you are going to have to risk misgender a trans person? Otherwise you are allowing a potentially dangerous situation to occur.

Its not a gotcha. Its the idea that we do not have the right to challenge anyone in single sex spaces. Trans identifying men are not a peotected class. They cannot be allowed to transgress safeguarding because they claim itll be too upsetting for them to follow the rules.

@Tandora
Small reminder about this conversation. I think this example is helping.

I think it's a widely shared one.

If you think it's so hard to identify who these women are why do you insist that it's so important they have separate provision and so easy to enforce that everywhere?

Can you give me an example of what you mean?

No it isn't. This is a complete denial/ refutation of trans women’s experience. It's the very opposite of acceptance and inclusion.

I changed this for you to try and see this from the women’s perspective. No, I can’t totally understand the trans experience because I’m a woman. So, let’s reverse that, how can a man claim he’s a woman. He has absolutely zero understanding of what it is like to live as a woman. He can only assume and guess.

The existence of a minority of people who are trans makes absolutely no comment on your experience whatsoever, or the experience of non trans women in general.

Basically, they're like the equivalent of people who know vaccines work but choose not to get vaccinated and rely on everyone else to do the right thing.

Trans women want women's spaces to exist and be just for women, plus them. There's no way to enforce a rule that lets them in but prohibits other men, because other men could just say they are women and access those spaces too. If all men did this, all spaces would become mixed sex and there would be no more women's spaces for trans women to use and feel validated as women.

So they are relying on all other men to respect the law and women's boundaries, so that they can be the only ones who don't.

It's easy to identify women.

"Cis" is a completely made up concept though.

@Tandora

It is not racist to tell any biological man to keep out of the women’s changing room.

It is not transphobic to tell any biological man to stay out of the women’s changing room.

It is not sexist to tell any biological man to stay out of women’s changing rooms.

@Tandora
This is the context of the conversation so far.

Fidgetbreak:
So, in the previous example where a doctor has made an incorrect assumption about their patient's sex. What method is followed to correctly verify the patient's sex?

Tandora:
Well, they wouldn't necessarily know unless the patient told them, or perhaps there was something in the medical records.

Fidgetbreak:
For the sake of simplifying the example, let's say that there is nothing in the medical records, and that has contributed to making the false assumption. What would the patient tell them to clear up the mistake?

So why is it that the countries where women are happiest, safest and most equal to men (all feminist aspirations) have moved forward with gender self ID policies? Please see the 3 charts I posted earlier.

I don’t think it’s difficult to identify what sex people are. That’s your position.

Well the doctor might perceive a trans woman to be male, for example, because they don't "pass". The patient might then explain she was here for a breast screening exam because she had found a lump, in which case the doctor might become confused. At that point the patient would need to explain that they were a trans woman and had been taking hormonal therapies and had found a lump which they needed checking.

Or a passing trans man might come into the consultation room and explain that they were worried about a vaginal infection. The doctor might be initially surprised/ thrown and the patient might then want to explain that they are trans.

Of course all this could be solved by better medical practice with improved understanding of diversity and the need for organ-specific rather than sex-specific care.

No. It's my position that we can't point to one specific thing/ measure and say that this thing is definitive, objective, unassailable, proof of a person's everlasting sex. Sex is a complex measure with multiple components. All things don't need to be fixed and binary in order for us to identify them.

Did you decide that for me and other women @Tandora?

The arrogance you have is unbelievable. You don’t get to tell me about my lived experience as a woman and you don’t get to tell me whether my daughter should play sport against boys. You don’t get to decide my friend, who was raped, can now share a changing room with a biological males even though this is triggering for her and you don’t get to tell my religious friend she may have to self exclude.

You don’t get to erase the meaning of the word woman.

Because they have privilege.

Difficult to measure how safe, happy and equal women are in countries where they're not allowed to say they don't want men who pretend to women in their spaces.

New Zealand was high on that list. That's the country where a group of Maori women invited Kellie-Jay Keen to speak, the event was disrupted by violent activists who assaulted women (including one who punched a 70 year old woman in the head and fractured her skull), and Kellie-Jay Keen herself had to flee the country due to fear for her own personal safety. The New Zealand prime minister was later interviewed on the news and said if he'd known about the protest he would have joined it himself. When the journalist asked which side he would have been on, he said, "In support of our rainbow community, of course!"

The activist who fractured the 70 year old woman's skull got off with a small fine and guaranteed anonymity in the New Zealand press. (Couldn't allow a lovely young man like that to have his entire future ruined over such a non incident.) The 70 year old victim didn't even get her medical expenses covered.

That's not a country I'd call safe for women. Safe compared to Afghanistan, perhaps. But nothing to write home about.

You don’t get to tell me about my lived experience as a woman

I didn't!!!

I said nothing whatsoever about your experience. That's the whole point.

The fact that some people happen to be trans, says nothing whatsoever about how you experience the world or otherwise.

Nobody has made any comment on this.