"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

Well, they wouldn't necessarily know unless the patient told them, or perhaps there was something in the medical records.

No, I haven't! I've got my " ideas" from listening to people.

'Regretters was part of an LGBTQ package of films and documentaries. I've watched many such films and documentaries. Another 'La Petite Fille' a documentary about a young french boy and how his mother sought to transition him at school, and the issues they faced.' Queendom' is another...but on BBC Storyville.

What you are calling 'transphobic' is anything that which shatters your carefully curated world view.

You are free to disagree with my position. Of course, the difference is that I understand the point I was making.

You've got your ideas from consuming transphobic content online and watching netflix..

So you dismiss the experiences and thoughts of anyone who has or had a trans identity because it doesn't chime with your regimented view? I thought you were all for the lived experience mantra and believing what trans people say about themselves. Hypocrite much?

Because , as has already been explained to you in this thread, transracial and trans-age are not enduring, consistent human experiences, rather isolated individual reports. Non binary experiences, on the other hand, have a long history across cultures and time.

O I'm glad someone does 😊

No what I'm calling transphobic is harmful and inaccurate prejudices about trans people rooted in the idea that being trans is not a real and valid form of human diversity, but rather a harmful social contagion, linked to sexual deviance, gender stereotypes, homophobia etc etc - all kind of things. These ideas are very popular at the moment a promoted by various online campaigning groups/ documentaries etc.

Oh I see what you mean. Yes I think that's probably correct.

You haven’t answered the question.

In addition, you’ve previously argued that other people should accept the sex of a trans person is the sex they ‘understand themselves’ to be. You’re now saying this isn’t fixed or objective. How is a patient, for example, supposed to assess what sex their clinician is beyond the evidence they see before them, based on the fixed, material reality of their obvious sex? “This is a male person”.

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter whether it's real or not. It's still not a good reason why their wants should trump our needs.

you don’t believe your own theory.

You want the other poster to consider your opinion and have used could rather than “do reflect a real, legitimate, natural, stable form of human diversity”

because you can’t prove that assertion.

And if trans was natural, why do they need surgery and hormones.

I’ll answer the question you’re evading; non binary people are either male or female. It’s a fashionable trend/ belief akin to many in the past such as goth, mods etc.

Because the question is a logical fallacy. I can't answer it without agreeing with your premise. It's like showing me a rainbow that changes in the light and demanding I answer the question of what colour it truly is: black or white!

A rainbow is a spectrum. Black and white are opposites.

Guess which one of these things "male/female" is more similar to.

Nobody said sex is irrelevant. Complicated is not the same as irrelevant!!!

Sex is important, it's also complex.

Transgender experiences were, until relatively recently, confined to isolated individual reports in Western society. Stories like that of Lili Elbe were noteworthy precisely because they were so unusual.

Should transracial or trans-age identities become as socially desirable as transgender identities have been in recent history, I have no doubt that their incidence will also become sufficiently frequent to be misinterpreted as "enduring, consistent human experiences".

For the sake of simplifying the example, let's say that there is nothing in the medical records, and that has contributed to making the false assumption. What would the patient tell them to clear up the mistake?

what sex are non binary people then?

reeeeally important for medical records

A very bold bold statement.

Transwomen are human beings. Some humans are nice and some nasty, so to lump Transwomen as a group into not being a threat is very very bold when we have several examples of Transwomen who have clearly demonstrated that they are a threat.

Humans are varied in their behaviours and personalities but come in just two sexes, male and female and no one can change sex. Transwomen belong to the male category and for various reasons women have rights in the UK to single sex spaces which transwomen have no right to access otherwise those spaces would no longer be single sex spaces. Not all men but enough men….sane applies to those men who have trans identities.

No. You’re going beyond that. You are implying that merely recognising the actual sex of a trans person is an act of appalling bigotry. Is humiliating another person. Is a deliberate act of causing pain. Rather than an observation.

You can’t answer it because your position is nonsensical.

Sex is a biological mechanism for reproduction of living organisms. Humans, like all mammals, are sexually dimorphic. The variation in primary and secondary sexual characteristics is variation within two categories. The complexity of the developmental pathway required to create male and female bodies should not be confused with the simplicity of the outcome: two sex categories.

O right. Which parts of the verbal and physical abuse, discrimination and harassment are the socially desirable ones?

you are implying that merely recognising the actual sex of a trans person is an act of appalling bigotry

You might perceive a trans person to be a particular 'sex', based on your understanding of 'sex'. You are entitled to hold that belief - as partial as it may be.

That does not entitle you to make comments about your observation/perception directly to that person, particularly where you know full well that will be humiliating and painful to the person. This is bigoted, yes, as its showing complete disregard for the minority difference of another person. It's also cruel, just in the same way as it would be cruel to tell someone they are fat just because you observed/ perceived it.

In addition, you’ve previously argued that other people should accept the sex of a trans person is the sex they ‘understand themselves’ to be. You’re now saying this isn’t fixed or objective. How is a patient, for example, supposed to assess what sex their clinician is beyond the evidence they see before them, based on the fixed, material reality of their obvious sex? “This is a male person”.

And how do doctor's assess the sex of the patient in front of them? Do they ask them what sex they understand themselves to be? What if the patient is unconcious? If, as you assert, sex is an ever fluid changeable state and not objective how does the doctor treat them? Does said doctor just guess and hope for the best?

It's not nonsensical at all. It reflects the complexity of the world. Your position is nonsensical because it cannot accommodate the complexity of the world as it actually exists.