"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

Would you elaborate on what the other components of the male sex are?

How can you possibly measure equality between the sexes in any meaningful way when you are recording some male people as female and some female people as male? Your input data is compromised from the outset.

what’s their sex

You’ve answered re detransitioners, and I don’t think you’ve said what sex they are. So let’s take an example. A young woman presents to her GP as having gender dysphoria. She transitions socially, she takes hormones, she has a mastectomy. In your world this is now a male person correct? Or to be more precise they are the male person they always were. After a few years the same person comes to the decision that they made a mistake. That they no longer believe they are truly male. They, as much as possible, reverse the changes they have made to their body. They revert to their former female name. What sex are they now? Why? Please don’t bother with the ‘people only detransition due to prejudice’. It isn’t relevant and there are clear, documented examples of that not being true.

And you still haven’t explained what sex non-binary people are.

you refuse to accept that the existence of trans people could reflect a real, legitimate, natural, stable form of human diversity

Lots of characteristics represent real, legitimate, natural and stable forms of human diversity. Eye colour. Height. Food preferences. Presence or absence of perfect pitch. Ability to wiggle one's ears or not.

That doesn't mean we're obliged to organise society to prioritise each of these dimensions of diversity.

Why is being trans a "special" form of diversity that merits preferential treatment?

@Tandora So I have three people in front of me - a man, a trans woman and a non binary person who has gone through male puberty.

Each is living their lives according to their gender identity. The one thing they have in common is a healthy male body.

Now I have a Muslim woman, a woman with past sexual assault trauma, and an 11-year old girl.

These three females require a safe single sex space to change in without the presence of male bodies.

Do you accept that the three people with male bodies should not be in the single sex female changing room?

You have decided only your perceptions of the world matter, and that's why you refuse to accept that the existence of trans people could reflect a real, legitimate, natural, stable form of human diversity, despite a mountain of evidence of this. In your world transness is an imaginary and elusive identity. And no matter what anyone says you will never for a second take a moment to reconsider this perspective.

Every reason to have single sex spaces and opportunity is based on the differences between male and female people.

People have different identities and personalities, but thats different to sex.

We have set up systems to protect female people based on their needs because of their sex. Its madness to then remove the sex element and let male people into the spaces and opportunities.

If men can be included into the womens single sex space, it begs the question why the single sex space is needed in the first place?

If sex is based on an individuals understanding or perception of themselves, it would be impossible and meaningless to have single sex spaces in the first place.

What is the a priori reason why society shouldn't recognise this dimension?

After all, historically and in the present day across cultures, there are societies that do organize differently and have social structures that recognise identities beyond a binary male / female.

I know that. I just think suggestions got the wrong end of the stick with this data set, (fairly) progressive countries implemented GI demands, not implementation of GI demands lead to better outcome for women (if true) as suggestions keeps claiming.

It's everything on the 'male' developmental pathway - which starts with an XY karyotype that carries the SRY gene, that produces the testes, which produces androgens that drive masculinization of the body, and then there is the aspect of how we recognise, become aware, observe, experience, sense male sex which relates to human cognition, and our observation of a range of social, environmental and biological/ physiological cues.

The one thing they have in common is a healthy male body.

😩

Then "(as you say) transwomen are women?"- where have you taken that from in my post? False attribution from information you have available to you.
So your consistent alignment with Tandora's position is because you don't think transwomen are women?

Then "then these countries can't be that great at womens' wellbeing, can they?" Conclusion does not logically follow from premises.
No, entirely logical. If metrics for trans-identified males are substantially lower than for females, but both groups are subdued into the category "women", then the wellbeing of some "women" isn't great, is it?

Sex is not a fixed, objective, unitary, measure - it is a complex process of development with a range of components, some of these components are both naturally fluctuating and/ or changeable, some of them aren't.

The problem you are having is that you simply can't get your head around his complexity and you are insisting everything must always be one thing, or another opposite thing, and that can never be ambiguous and it can never change. That may be a comforting idea for you but it does not reflect the complexity of the real world.

Another false attribution. As I continually say on these threads, I am not making a causative claim here, I don't need to.

I simply need to show that the countries who are implementing policies of gender self ID have risen to the top of equality and wellbeing tables for women, remain there and are not falling down these tables despite, in many case, years of having implemented these policies.

If, as the GC position continually asserts, self ID is such a massive negative for women, why have these countries not fallen down the tables for women's equality and wellbeing since implementing it?

No, my understanding comes from having listened to the the various narratives, stories and accounts of people who have adopted such identities. Both male and female.

No, detransition is not rare.....and I've listened to the stories of many. What led them to developing a trans identity; how it felt and what it meant when they had done so; and how they gradually came to realise that this wasn't a workable strategy for them.

We have to exist in a world and in a society in which people do not share the same imaginings and beliefs as we do...and if you are a female presenting as a male, and vice versa you are regularly going to have to deal with the perceptions and feelings of other people, especially when they clash with your own self perception. Perhaps this is what you are referring to as 'prejudice'?

The only"biological under-pinning" lies in the fact that to 'be trans' one has to be of the other sex to that which you desire for yourself.

Have you ever watch 'Regretters' on Netflix? A Swedish documentary about two men who transitioned many decades ago...long before it became the vogue it now is. One in the 1960's when it was still illegal to be homosexual....and the other in the early 1980's when he decided that if the women he liked/fancied didn't like him back, then he'd become a woman himself. The men were both very different to each other, had different backgrounds and motivations for transition, and their relationship to their owm masculinity was each quite different to the other .Both went so far as to have their genitalia surgically removed.

Decades later they reflect on their lives and their stories and on how they both eventually came to realise ( decades later) that they were not actually women after all.........and how both were now preparing for reconstructive surgery.

Give it time.

You've got your ideas from consuming transphobic content online and watching netflix..

Your posts are all dogmatic @Tandora

you’re using the language of science without the referenced hard evidence to support your claims/ theories or beliefs. It’s convincing to some who don’t really understand science.

note the inserted “could” before your statement in the attached screen shot.

it’s a could. Not a definite.

you are one of a number of people who believe what you’re saying. You have theories. Scientists are attempting to test these theories but so far it’s not outweighing the evidence gender clinics have had for years; that there are many social factors driving this body perception disorder. And the vast majority of people desist. That’s what uk nhs treatment (using tax payers money) was based on, forgot for a while, and is returning to.

there’s no hard evidence to back up your belief. I’d add a “yet” but it’s clear that scientists know an enormous amount about biology and sex. And haven’t found what you assert. Even Levine failed.

The diagnosis continues to be based on feelings beliefs and imagination.

You’re playing the DARVO game here. There’s a mountain of evidence to demonstrate the binary nature of sex.

People can “say” it till the binary cows come home. It doesn’t make it true.

I don’t understand your response.

Is there a reason why you can’t answer re the need for single sex spaces? With perhaps the creation of third space options to provide a safe and dignified place for trans and non binary people to change so that they don’t have to be forced to use the changing room of their birth sex?

That is a lot clearer. Thank you.

So, in the previous example where a doctor has made an incorrect assumption about their patient's sex. What method is followed to correctly verify the patient's sex?

Recognise which dimension? Food preferences? You are free to think that society ought to be organised along that dimension if you wish, though I expect you'll be in the minority.

If you're referring to identifying as transgender, that is exactly my point. Why, a priori, are transgender identities a dimension of human diversity that must be catered for and not other types of identity? Why transgender and not transracial or trans-age?

What is the difference between a male who says "I'm a woman" and "I'm Napoleon"? In both cases the male is claiming an identity that is fundamentally at odds with objective evidence.

note the inserted “could” before your statement in the attached screen shot

Yes. No idea what you think you are proving here. that was to demonstrate the fact that that particular poster isn't willing to consider this as even a possibility.

You have a very loose way with logic 😂. I prefer precision (which logic hinges on) . Again your first paragraph in this post does not logically follow.

And what you're saying in the 2nd paragraph in this post is now very different from what you've said in your first post. Of course the wellbeing of SOME women is not great. That is why studies have to work on overall averages.

If sex is irrelevant, or too complicated to determine, why does Dr Upton want to be in the female changing room?

What is the purpose of a female changing room if gender identity is more important. Why is he not bothered about potentially being in spaces with people with different gender identities?

What sex are non binary people?