"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

And yet a position held by the majority of the population. So you had better get on with changing this via the democratic process.

AHA!

Finally!

We have a definition of trans!

People who reject their birth sex.

Finally, we are getting somewhere.

Now perhaps we can discuss the extent to which the fact that someone has rejected their birth sex should mean their desire to be considered a member of the opposite sex should trump the rights and needs of everyone else.

Right, so they request a different doctor, not specifying what the problem is with Dr Upton, and they get a replacement doctor, who happens to be a man. Then what?

Yeah But, no.

No thank you. What you ask is entirely unnecessary.

Personally I’d prefer the people you want me to accommodate because of their internal belief system, accommodate my internal sense that they are what they appear.

My internal sense of who is female is just as important as theirs. I’d argue more so as I not only am female in every possible convoluted definition, but am among the vast majority who perceive it this way.

It's fairly plain scientific language.

hereditable - means it can be inherited.

Polygenic means relating to several/ multiple genes.

Sex-hormone signalling genes are those that play a role in the production, transport, metabolism, and action of sex hormones like oestrogen, progesterone, and testosterone and produce systemic effects across the body including the brain.

You don't get to decide that.

Tandora Im confused with arguments, mainly because it doesn't fit within trans ideology.

If we cannnot identify sex because its multi dimensional and too complex, it would be impossible to transition. To transition someone would have to acknowledge their sex, reject it, and do whatever they feel comfortable with to attempt to 'live as if they are the opposite sex'.

Therefore for transgender people to be recognised and accommodated, we need to acknowledge that they are attempting to transition between the sexes. And those sexes have to be definable.

They know they can't do this, which is why they've spent the last 10+ years trying to do it via undemocratic means, by stealth.

on many matters - especially race

This is a common misconception, the strongest correlation in prison populations is to 'class' typically defined in terms of income.

This means that the poorer you are the more likely you are to end up in prison.

In the US, where most studies have been undertaken, you are much more likely to be of low income if you are an ethnic minority.

This leads to the situation where prison generally populations appear dominated by ethnic minorities but actually they are dominated by the poor.

We often end up putting people into prison because they are poor and poor people do desperate things

It's my opinion of course. But living in a society involves a balancing of things.

Some boundaries are entirely absolute - nobody can have sex with me without my consent.

Others have to be negotiated on a basis of agreed reasonability - e.g. I don't want to share this particular public facility with you, I want to reserve the right to address you in language of my choosing regardless of the impact that has on you.

The law agrees with my opinion, not yours.

So you're saying that 'trans people' naturally have opposite sex hormones working on their brains?

If they did, they wouldn't need to take cross sex hormones, would they?

DU would have no reason to think that a patient requesting a female doctor would object to her

If the patient didn't object to her treating them, how would she know that they had a problem?

If no patient is allowed to mention that their objection relates to the fact that Dr Upton is male. If they are only allowed to say “I’m not comfortable” without saying why, how would Dr Upton or indeed the trust know that was the reason? My point stands. You want to create a culture where no one is able to say “this person is male and I therefore object to this” and then claim that everyone believes they are female.

I disagree with your interpretation of equalities law as you know.

However, it is also the case that transphobia being increasingly institutionalised in the UK, through law and policy. So I agree with your broader point that, at the present time, the law is in your favour. I believe SP will win her case. I think this is a terrible injustice.

And if the trans-identified male doctor happens to be a different colour to me, for example, I want him to know that it is his maleness that is the issue, not his colour.

In case you need reminding @Tandora silence does not equal consent.

Quite

Of course not. But no intimate medical procedure can be performed without prior active consent.
So if the patient actively consented to the procedure, and then didn't articulate withdrawal of that consent, how could DU reasonably be accused of SA?

Lots of people's bodies naturally produce sex hormones and yet still require exogenous hormonal therapies. Sex hormones are not an on/ off switch. Levels of sex hormones in the body is a highly variable/ continuous/ fluctuating measure.

Axes of human diversity ...

Man(1) (registered male at birth): "I'm a woman, me."

Man(2) (works down the chip shop): "I'm Elvis, me."

Man(3) (chatting up girl in club): "I'm cool, me."

... I think all three clearly deluded, if sincere. You distinguish these different self-descriptions. I think you make a distinction without a relevant difference.

Why am I wrong?

But you appear to be saying there is already non typical hormone production in trans people's bodies, evidenced by their brain. This is not something I've heard before, can you expand?

I think that Minor Attracted Adults often fully believe that the minor they are in a relationship with is consenting and able to consent. This may not be about sex but is pretty well always about deceit and manipulating someone who has less authority. You make claims about Dr Upton and the fictitious patient as though that patient can simply say No. That example is worse than others as its got all sorts of undesirable consequences for the patient if they say no.

Just because transwomen are a minority does not mean that they can't oppress others.

I haven’t mentioned SA. Of course someone can withdraw consent. Your argument is that they can’t say why. They can’t say why to maintain the myth that everyone thinks DU is female

You think someone winning an employment tribunal where the defendant, a doctor, targeted, harassed, lied about and then FALSIFIED EVIDENCE about is an injustice? Really shows the depths you will sink to to support trans people at all costs, with no question, irrespective of the particular context. And women get blanket 'transphobia', with a side of racist for no apparent reason, whatever they say, do or think. You realise there will be honourable women and dishonourable trans people and vice versa? Such a strange position. I hope your brother or whoever it is will turn out to be worth throwing an entire sex class under the bus for.