"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

You can't alter them into the gonads of the opposite sex though. All you can do is destroy your own fertility and sexual function in order to make your body look a bit different.

No one can physically know what it is to be another sex. Not having physically experienced it, how could they?

Classic case of a logical fallacy :).

Trans people do know what their experience of sex is, because they are literally, actually, directly, physically experiencing it.

No being trans has got nothing to do with social stereotypes.

It has to, because this literally is what it is to be trans. If you refuse/ deny this you are refusing/ allowing a person to actually be trans, and treating them as if they weren't trans. This is the direct opposite of respect and accommodation

No, it is treating them as if they weren't the opposite sex, because they arent.

If you "allow accommodations" for nice trans women who wouldn't hurt a fly to use women's toilets and changing rooms, you also have to allow violent male rapists and murderers the same access.

Because there is literally no way to tell the difference between the two.

Which is completely denying/ refusing what it is to be trans.

No they aren't

How do you even think that works?

How do 'trans people' experience what it is to be the opposite sex?

That's nice, you actually make me laugh a lot too Tandora. It shouldn't really be possible, but I think the fact that more and more people are waking up to the harms of gender ideology and that women are finally able to start redressing the imbalance makes it much easier to laugh.

The wheels are coming off the ideology which is great, and even better news for you Tandora, trans identified people will continue to be safe, included in society, and in full possession of the same rights as everyone else. The only difference is that women will be given all those things back to them, because they were the ones who actually had things unlawfully taken away from them. You and the TRAs who come to our collective (feminists) attention are really upset about that rebalancing and righting of a huge injustice, which is not great, but I think it's illuminating for others nonetheless.

@Tandora thank you for keeping this up. I am sure there are other readers of this thread who cannot believe that you think you are correct and that women should set aside their concerns because there are 'other women' who were not born women and may look exactly like men and be biological-test-wise male who wish to call themselves female and be in women-only spaces.

Given that this is something that transwomen cannot help. Could a comparison be made with Minor Attracted adults who are also a minority and really (I do believe that) sincerely believe they are in a reciprocal and loving and equal relationship with a child and see themselves as very misunderstood and unfairly treated. Do you have view on this? I am not doubting that in some cases there is a true belief that behaving as a women and demanding to be treated as one in every respect. But you are not acknowledging that there are any problems for women. This sounds to me like what we hear from MIA's who claim that there is no harm to the children.

How do 'trans people' experience what it is to be the opposite sex other than the sex that they were observed/ registered at birth

How do you even think that works?

By studying it and realising that it is.

What directly causes it remains unknown, but all the best evidence across multiple disciplines suggests that it has durable biological underpinning, and that it cannot be altered through therapy or otherwise (and trying to do so is very harmful).

Well it is denying/refusing what Tandora says it is to be trans, which may not be quite the same thing since there seem to be several versions of transness out there, including one where trans-identified people fully accept that they have not changed sex

OK. And?

Why does this matter more than the needs of the female half of the population?

I think we need to normalise saying that it's OK for trans people not to get what they want.

What is this 'durable biological underpinning' to knowing what it feels like to be the opposite sex?

Given that this is something that transwomen cannot help. Could a comparison be made with Minor Attracted adults who are also a minority and really (I do believe that) sincerely believe they are in a reciprocal and loving and equal relationship with a child and see themselves as very misunderstood and unfairly treated

Absolutely not.

Recognising and accommodating trans people does not require you to have sex with them without your consent.
You might have to share the use of a public toilet with them, you might have to address them using the language they have requested which is compatible with their dignity as a person.
Unconsensual sex? No.

No this is not a curious, personal opinion of mine, this is quite literally what it is to be trans - to reject your sex observed/ registered at birth. This is the definition of trans.

You might have to share the use of a public toilet with them, you might have to address them using the language they have requested which is compatible with their dignity as a person.

Neither of those are compatible with my dignity as a person, so I'm not going to do it. If you want to force me to do it, you will have to use the democratic process to do so

If the patient didn't object to her treating them, how would she know that they had a problem?

But if they indicate they have a problem they are guilty of (according to you) causing great pain and humiliation. So again women can't win.

You want to create a world where objections or disagreement are framed as bigotry. You create a culture where no one dares say anything at pain of being told they are unkind. They stay quiet. Then you say "see, most people agree with us".

Because the patient had already requested same sex intimate care, and the trans identifying doctor knew that.

Again trans identified male doctors feelings balanced with reality and law and how it immediately effects the female patient.

Again, silence is not consent.

Dr Upton knows he is male. In the eyes of the law he is male. The hypothetical trans identifying doctor we've been talking about, ditto. Both would be knowingly committing an act of sexual violence against their female patient in this scenario.

Tandora can attempt to defend the indefensible as much as Tandora likes, but Tandora's arguments remain as indefensible, abhorrent, and yes, misogynist as always.

Can we stop pretending.
Dr Upton knows they are male. The NHS staff around them know Dr Upton is male - unless we are supposed to believe that every female Dr was asked during an induction about their happiness to use the female changing rooms. The tribunal knows Dr Upton is male. We all know.

Well the latest evidence suggests a hereditable polygenic underpinning related to sex hormone-signalling gene complexes which operate systemically across the body, including in the brain.

Unconsensual sex? No.

Yet you ARE arguing for unconsensual sharing of intimate facilities, unconsensual sharing of cells in prisons, unconsensual pairing in contact sports, unconsensual delivery of intimate medical care, unconsensual entry into domestic violence shelters and rape crisis groups.

Neither of those are compatible with my dignity as a person

Well that is completely ridiculous and unreasonable of you.

😂😂😂

Dumb word salad.

What do you actually mean?

Ooh so what we can do is test for this. Anyone who passes is trans. Anyone who firsent is delusional. I bet with alll your experience and clout in this field you can set this up. Yay.

No your definition is much wider; that trans people actually are the opposite sex.

But if they indicate they have a problem they are guilty of (according to you) causing great pain and humiliation. So again women can't win

Again. 'Dr, I am not comfortable with you undertaking this procedure. I'd like to request a different Dr.'

Perfectly ok.

'Dr, I am not comfortable with you undertaking this procedure, because you are male and I want a female doctor.'

Unnecessary personal comment on the body/ person of another, which directly contradicts their lived experience, and is likely to cause great pain and humiliation.