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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

1000 replies

nauticant · 24/07/2025 14:08

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

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DuchessofReality · 24/07/2025 18:04

I am catching up, but a couple of threads ago someone commented on how frustrating it was that it was seemingly so hard for some people to understand that women want safety, privacy and dignity and therefore single sex spaces. I think lots of people are conditioned to ‘be kind’ to the person in front of them, and they are therefore a little embarrassed to need to explain, either to Beth, or say to a colleague who has a trans child, that statistically men are a risk to women, because it seems to imply something negative about a particular person.

And that I think is why sports have been, to a certain extent, an opinion leader on this. Because saying that a man would easily beat a woman in a sport is not implying anything negative about the man. So it is easier to put forward as a neutral point of view.

KnottyAuty · 24/07/2025 18:05

FlatfacedCattypuss · 24/07/2025 17:39

I still can’t get over the fact that back in February NHS Fife was denying the first investigation ever happened. Jane Russell had an exchange with the judge where she insisted that Esther Davidson was NOT an investigator, only a postbox. Who made the decision to attempt to conceal that, and how on earth did they think they would get away with it?!

I suppose that JR was able to claim that because her client had completely failed to complete full disclosure. And they seem to enjoy adding to the bundle every few days. Apparently the original bundle was about 1000 pages and about the same has been added since Part 1. And it seems it is still incomplete. The judge should read them the riot act - at every opportunity Fife have tried to avoid telling the truth. It is a bad look

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 24/07/2025 18:06

The pronouns question seems odd when standing before a judge/in a court

Swearing to 'tell the truth' is part of the experience.

If you truly think that Dr U is a woman (despite all the evidence of your eyes and other senses) using 'she/her' would be the right thing to do.

If you know that he is not (even if you want to please or be kind to him) you must use 'he/him' or you are not keeping your oath/are in contempt.

Jitrenka · 24/07/2025 18:06

Got called into work earlier 🙄 just got caught up on todays events in court am gonna make some tea and then go through everyone’s commentary but since that is an entire thread can someone just answer me this was it just me or did JR sneakily try to sneakily make NC use preferred pronouns for the man?

KnottyAuty · 24/07/2025 18:07

FlatfacedCattypuss · 24/07/2025 17:51

The argument was that she had passively received some statements but she was not an investigator because there wasn’t an investigation . . .

But she had gathered a whole investigation file which she passed on to the next IX... sigh. They aren't pretending any more

RabbitFurCoat · 24/07/2025 18:07

Jitrenka · 24/07/2025 18:06

Got called into work earlier 🙄 just got caught up on todays events in court am gonna make some tea and then go through everyone’s commentary but since that is an entire thread can someone just answer me this was it just me or did JR sneakily try to sneakily make NC use preferred pronouns for the man?

Oh there was no sneakily about it.

Jitrenka · 24/07/2025 18:09

RabbitFurCoat · 24/07/2025 18:07

Oh there was no sneakily about it.

Yeah i know and the worst thing is i debated about saying sneakily since it was blatant and then ended up saying sneakily twice 🤦‍♀️😂🤣

FeedbackProvider · 24/07/2025 18:09

I’m a couple of threads behind, never to catch up. Not sure what anyone else thought, but to me the interjection from JR about the pronouns came across like a threat to the witness on the stand. Creepy. Witness seemed more flustered after the interruption than before it. Given the implied threat of your own side’s lawyer suggesting that you had just committed a grievous offence, it’s not surprising that you would get nervous and give circumspect answers as a witness.

BoeotianNightmare · 24/07/2025 18:12

Anyone who is watching the tribunal live, are SP and DU present every day?

KnottyAuty · 24/07/2025 18:13

BoeotianNightmare · 24/07/2025 18:12

Anyone who is watching the tribunal live, are SP and DU present every day?

We can't see any of the observers as they are all off camera. There are different rooms too. But I believe SP has been there every day. I assume DU is observing online if at all as they haven't been photographed this week?

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 24/07/2025 18:14

How does it work that the entire case from the SP side was presented with circa half the documentation not produced. Can NC call more witnesses now or is she stuck with only having people from the respondents side to go through the extra bundle, extra extra bundle, special surprise bundle, bundle 5 - bundle in New York, bundle 6 (hopefully) the final bundle, Fast and Bundelous 7 etc.

RememberAston · 24/07/2025 18:14

I spent part of the afternoon cutting out and rough-sanding some discs of wood for a project I'm working on. I was just musing whether this sanding (just to get the skelfs off) counted as a big sond or a wee sond.

DuchessofReality · 24/07/2025 18:15

Just in case anyone has a burning desire to be on an Employment Tribunal Panel….

https://www.judiciary.uk/non-legal-members-of-the-employment-tribunal-pre-application-seminar-2025/

There is a recruitment exercise coming up for the panel members (ie not the Judge). You would be expected to have either ‘employee’ or ‘employer’ type experience (I am not quite sure what that means - maybe union or HR type experience??)

Non-Legal Members of the Employment Tribunal — Pre-Application Seminar 2025 - Courts and Tribunals Judiciary

The online event on Thursday 4 September 2025 will help potential applicants prepare for a recruitment drive to be launched that month

https://www.judiciary.uk/non-legal-members-of-the-employment-tribunal-pre-application-seminar-2025/

Jitrenka · 24/07/2025 18:17

Ok i know this stuff is serious for us women but this is really why SP is fighting! Well all of us are fighting this stuff but..
Imagine a trans person seeing a kid with a safe with me badge and thinking ill take them into the bathroom.. we are feeding kids to these paraphilia driven men like some twisted version of the child catcher and his lollipops!! 🙈

https://x.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1948270400888082704

https://x.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1948270400888082704

Jitrenka · 24/07/2025 18:17

I only just went on X that was the first thing i saw and thats me done with X for the night!!!

SmudgeHughes · 24/07/2025 18:18

Waitwhat23 · 24/07/2025 14:30

I was thinking that the other day. In the absence of flowers and a big bottle of spirits (which given the anonymity of this site would be impossible), I'd be happy to contribute to Naut's charity of choice (or category of charity) as a thank you.

@GCITC I believe that Sex Matters is funding the Sandy Peggie case. You can go to their website and donate there.

FlatfacedCattypuss · 24/07/2025 18:19

KnottyAuty · 24/07/2025 18:07

But she had gathered a whole investigation file which she passed on to the next IX... sigh. They aren't pretending any more

So who at Fife decided to try to cover it up? Were they going to instruct Esther Davidson and others to actively dissemble on the stand if Naomi hadn’t sniffed it out? This whole thing is dodgy as fuck all the way along. I hope they all get absolutely excoriated in the judgment.

SmudgeHughes · 24/07/2025 18:20

BeLemonNow · 24/07/2025 17:43

Indeed he would have had a name tag saying "Dr. Beth Upton" possibly. But that's it.

Dr. Upton was also at a very early stage in transition so unlikely to be taking any hormones.

I read today that he’s not taking hormones specifically because he has said publicly to colleagues that he and his wife want to have a child.

KateShugakIsALegend · 24/07/2025 18:22

SmudgeHughes · 24/07/2025 18:20

I read today that he’s not taking hormones specifically because he has said publicly to colleagues that he and his wife want to have a child.

Say what now?

I am so confused. How does that work?

I mean, I know how that works but but but....

BeKindWisely · 24/07/2025 18:22

SmudgeHughes · 24/07/2025 18:20

I read today that he’s not taking hormones specifically because he has said publicly to colleagues that he and his wife want to have a child.

Where please?

murasaki · 24/07/2025 18:24

BeKindWisely · 24/07/2025 18:22

Where please?

I think that's 'Rose' at Darlington, not Upton.

SmudgeHughes · 24/07/2025 18:24

Waitwhat23 · 24/07/2025 17:52

I agree though I also think there's an aspect that the general public are now more aware of what's going on than they were then and there's more interest. There has clearly been a massive uptick in people being aware and reading along with this thread (from comments I've seen) which is partly because it's a nurse involved for the reasons you and a pp have said but also because the whole GI has now hit such a level of bizarreness than people are saying 'hang on, what's going on?'

A mass peaking basically.

Although many mainstream media outlets are reporting it very much from a position that supports Dr Upton and implies that S Peggie has behaved in a cruel and insensitive fashion. The BBC has been an utter disgrace.

RaspberryScrubs · 24/07/2025 18:24
The Shining GIF

Helllloooo only meeeee in my Raspberry Scrubs.

Extravirginolive · 24/07/2025 18:26

FlatfacedCattypuss · 24/07/2025 17:39

I still can’t get over the fact that back in February NHS Fife was denying the first investigation ever happened. Jane Russell had an exchange with the judge where she insisted that Esther Davidson was NOT an investigator, only a postbox. Who made the decision to attempt to conceal that, and how on earth did they think they would get away with it?!

Probably Jane.

She's tried to smooth it into a more coherent process and failed.

She actually said something like you are not going to find a smoking gun.

High risk plan which has backfired.

Totallygripped · 24/07/2025 18:28

Waitwhat23 · 24/07/2025 18:00

There's also this image, which seems pertinent to today

Is that a random image of a 6ft bloke or a random image of the 6ft bloke? There were so many times today when I wanted to applaud Posts but I couldn't keep up. The evidence seemed all so much making it up as they went along. Re heresy I looked up (quickly obvs as didn't want to miss updating here) Galileo and his unfortunate encounter with Vatican HR. E pur se moeve. Think someone was asking for a snappy phrase for embroidery ( but do check spelling). I was also delighted by further hen facts and standard Fife procedure for listing witnesses. As to which was that away for 6 weeks really true? I feel I am only just getting the hang of it. Took me a while to work out dead cod.

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