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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

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29
GreenFriedTomato · 22/07/2025 21:47

TheHereticalOne · 22/07/2025 19:34

Please raise your hand if you have felt personally victimised by the removal of the laughing reaction while reading these threads. 🙋

Does anyone know why it was removed by Mumsnet?

I wouldn't mind so much if they had given us something else in exchange. Like the ability to temporarily block or mute certain posters.
That way you wouldn't have to scroll by their contrbutions. They simply wouldn't appear. That would be wonderful

Tandora · 22/07/2025 21:48

nocoolnamesleft · 22/07/2025 21:45

I really wish people would stop trying to drag people with DSDs (intersex generally rated an outdated term) into the trans debate. For the sake of any colleagues who are unsure what sex they are, please read the following:

When a baby is born, in the UK, they all have a "babycheck" performed. This is effectively an MOT. As part of this, the sex is observed. Not assigned, observed, and recorded. The vast majority of clinically significant DSDs would give rise to visible differences at this age. Such as megacliteris, fused labia majora, micropenis, bilateral undescended testes. Usually it is pretty apparent which sex the baby is despite one or more of these, but even so certain precautions are taken. The baby is urgently discussed with paediatric endocrinology, and usually reviewed by a consultant in paediatric endocrinology within 48 hours. As part of this review, in addition to history and a thorough examination, USS of the gonads is undertaken, as are blood tests for chromosomes (and also sometimes other bloods, such as 17 OH progesterone if congenital adrenal hyperplasia with female virilisation is suspected). Very very quickly the parents are informed about the sex of the baby.

The overwhelming majority of the time that sex will match the one first thought likely. Occasionally not. Incredibly rarely the phenotype (physical manifestations) may be sufficiently different from the genotype (chromosomes) that there is a discussion as whether to raise the child phenotypically or genotypically, based on what can be best achieved for a normalish life. This is a fraught area, and there's loads of evidence that decisions made to quickly by arrogant doctors can go very wrong.

Very occasionally, someone who had no differences in their genital appearance at birth it becomes apparent that something is different in puberty. This might be a phenotypical girl not having periods, for instance. And this is investigated thoroughly, and for example may find that a girl has XO genotype (Turner's, definitely female, look no Y chromosome) and streak ovaries. In over a quarter of a century of paediatrics I can literally remember only one phenotypic girl who outside infancy was discovered to have male gonads, and XY genotype. This was not a gotcha, this was an utter tragedy.

Only two forms of human gametes exist. Eggs, and sperm. No one in the history of humanity has had any other gamete. Reproduction is sexual, binary, and not on a spectrum.

Oh. and if you have ever had an actual period, you're definitely female.

Yours, a naffed off paediatrician who is speechless at captured colleagues pretending they don't know what sex is. Knowing the sex of a patient is an absolutely essential part of treating them safely.

Disappointed in this over-simplification from a paediatrician. Luckily you have more informed colleagues .

Yetmorewifework · 22/07/2025 21:49

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

GoldThumb · 22/07/2025 21:49

Sorry if I’ve missed it…
Why is the judge being referred to as ‘Big Sond’, what does this mean?

ThatCyanCat · 22/07/2025 21:50

Tandora · 22/07/2025 21:48

Disappointed in this over-simplification from a paediatrician. Luckily you have more informed colleagues .

Edited

It is glorious seeing how much you guys really hate losing.

littlbrowndog · 22/07/2025 21:52

ThatCyanCat · 22/07/2025 21:50

It is glorious seeing how much you guys really hate losing.

So true 🤣🤣

littlbrowndog · 22/07/2025 21:52

England just scored. Yay

ArabellaScott · 22/07/2025 21:52

nauticant · 22/07/2025 21:42

Years ago doing university exams I finally realised that if, instead of reading what I was supposed to be revising, I read it and summarised it in longhand, my recollection in comparison was extraordinary and I only needed to do this once rather than read and read and read again.

https://oxfordlearning.com/how-writing-by-hand-boosts-memory-and-learning/

Writing longhand is a way to learn in itself.

How Writing by Hand Boosts Memory and Learning - Oxford Learning

Discover the surprising benefits of handwriting for memory and learning. Learn more about the benefits of writing by hand here.

https://oxfordlearning.com/how-writing-by-hand-boosts-memory-and-learning/

Largesso · 22/07/2025 21:53

Michael Foran’s podcast v interesting. After the failure to disclose was addressed in part one over 1000 extra documents were submitted. He says this is an ‘extraordinary’ amount. Also, as we know, the importance of those documents.

He reminds us of the to and fro with the judge in part one where JR keeps insisting they’ve submitted all relevant documents and the judge has to reminder that it is not framed by such terms but rather ALL documents related to the case.

it is quite clear that they were indeed relevant.

This is serious misconduct that brings NHS Fife into disrepute (yes I know!) so I imagine will be addressed in submissions and judgement but after ET is over there has to be more serious consequences I think.

Lins77 · 22/07/2025 21:53

OMG Michelle Agyemang!

Sorry. Football. As you were.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 22/07/2025 21:54

Tandora · 22/07/2025 21:39

Not sure what you mean by “falls at the first hurdle”?

Our sense of/ awareness of being male or female is what is referred to as our gender identity. It’s got nothing to do with stereotypes. You say you have no gender identity, but if you are aware/ know your sex to be female , then you do.

Thats why DU says she is female. You all keep mocking her/ being incredulous about that, but that is exactly what it is to be a transwoman. It’s to be aware / have a sense of self as female, despite being registered male at birth.

It falls a the first hurdle because it is based entirely on feelings and so very easy to game

If a bad agent like Isla Bryson claims to be a woman then you have no way of accepting anything else - that's his stated internal image so it must be true

In your world, how do you stop a pervert who tells you he feels like a woman inside from accessing vulnerable women in single sex spaces?

By accepting people's stated gender you send up a bat signal to every creep and pervert to your 'open house'

Binglebong · 22/07/2025 21:54

Bubblegumicecreamm · 22/07/2025 21:00

I’m just catching up on the tribunal tweets, I’m on 11th Feb part 1, but I’m a few pages deep, it doesn’t start there.

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/2025.02.11-105310/threadreaderapp.com/thread/1889239395309420638.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.ph/2025.02.11-105310/threadreaderapp.com/thread/1889239395309420638.html

Thank you!

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 22/07/2025 21:56

I've come up with this great new banking idea.

At my new bank, your balance is whatever you say it is.

Anyone want to invest?

myplace · 22/07/2025 21:57

Charabanc · 22/07/2025 21:47

Yes, I meant to comment this earlier in reply to another post about his difference between February and now.

Back in February, he probably thought that NHS Fife were a relatively competent organisation that didnt conceal evidence from the court...

And he thought DU was that stereotypical fragile chap forced to occupy a no man’s land position, as he’s clearly ’not a woman’ yet appears to think he’s ’not a man’.

Then he sat through DU’s testimony and NC’s ruthless exposure of him as a domineering privileged male.

TheKeatingFive · 22/07/2025 21:57

Tandora · 22/07/2025 21:48

Disappointed in this over-simplification from a paediatrician. Luckily you have more informed colleagues .

Edited

What specifically do you take issue with here Tandora?

Flashout · 22/07/2025 21:57

I am aware that this may well be an unwelcome curveball but I’m still squatting at Silly Mid Off and my legs ache…

I am trying to understand how KS, clearly a bright and educated person, could have put herself on the stand and doled out that DU was entitled to use the F CR because of his self ID. KS may well think and believe that - who can guess - but if I was about to be faced with even a half asleep barrister, I sure as shit would have broken Google and ChatGPT etc making sure that I was factually correct in what I was saying.

Yet it seems as though KS hasn’t done that. If she HAD done that, the tinternet would have pointed out the glaring omission of DU’s GRC and the position of anyone on Team Sandie. I mean, it isn’t hard. But today it was like KS set herself up for some cracking sucker punches. Surely JR herself might have run through a “they’re going to say THIS” briefing?

TheKeatingFive · 22/07/2025 21:58

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 22/07/2025 21:56

I've come up with this great new banking idea.

At my new bank, your balance is whatever you say it is.

Anyone want to invest?

😂

ArabellaScott · 22/07/2025 21:58

nocoolnamesleft · 22/07/2025 21:45

I really wish people would stop trying to drag people with DSDs (intersex generally rated an outdated term) into the trans debate. For the sake of any colleagues who are unsure what sex they are, please read the following:

When a baby is born, in the UK, they all have a "babycheck" performed. This is effectively an MOT. As part of this, the sex is observed. Not assigned, observed, and recorded. The vast majority of clinically significant DSDs would give rise to visible differences at this age. Such as megacliteris, fused labia majora, micropenis, bilateral undescended testes. Usually it is pretty apparent which sex the baby is despite one or more of these, but even so certain precautions are taken. The baby is urgently discussed with paediatric endocrinology, and usually reviewed by a consultant in paediatric endocrinology within 48 hours. As part of this review, in addition to history and a thorough examination, USS of the gonads is undertaken, as are blood tests for chromosomes (and also sometimes other bloods, such as 17 OH progesterone if congenital adrenal hyperplasia with female virilisation is suspected). Very very quickly the parents are informed about the sex of the baby.

The overwhelming majority of the time that sex will match the one first thought likely. Occasionally not. Incredibly rarely the phenotype (physical manifestations) may be sufficiently different from the genotype (chromosomes) that there is a discussion as whether to raise the child phenotypically or genotypically, based on what can be best achieved for a normalish life. This is a fraught area, and there's loads of evidence that decisions made to quickly by arrogant doctors can go very wrong.

Very occasionally, someone who had no differences in their genital appearance at birth it becomes apparent that something is different in puberty. This might be a phenotypical girl not having periods, for instance. And this is investigated thoroughly, and for example may find that a girl has XO genotype (Turner's, definitely female, look no Y chromosome) and streak ovaries. In over a quarter of a century of paediatrics I can literally remember only one phenotypic girl who outside infancy was discovered to have male gonads, and XY genotype. This was not a gotcha, this was an utter tragedy.

Only two forms of human gametes exist. Eggs, and sperm. No one in the history of humanity has had any other gamete. Reproduction is sexual, binary, and not on a spectrum.

Oh. and if you have ever had an actual period, you're definitely female.

Yours, a naffed off paediatrician who is speechless at captured colleagues pretending they don't know what sex is. Knowing the sex of a patient is an absolutely essential part of treating them safely.

Thank you. I cannot imagine what it must be like to watch colleagues come out with some of the disingenuous pish they've been trying to claim in this tribunal.

Lunde · 22/07/2025 21:58

Igmum · 22/07/2025 21:09

I think the issue is that 6 people involved in the case got together in a private email group to discuss tactics and prevent foot in mouth. They then attempted to conceal this from the court. Spectacularly unethical (also very stupid to do this on your employer’s server). I’m tempted to ask them how they feel it’s working for them.

Added to which several of the 6 were witnesses in the cr-complaint and they also included the person making the complaint - DU - in the e-mail chain which totally prejudiced any investigation

Lins77 · 22/07/2025 21:59

GoldThumb · 22/07/2025 21:49

Sorry if I’ve missed it…
Why is the judge being referred to as ‘Big Sond’, what does this mean?

Big Sond - judge Alexander Kemp
Wee Sondie - Sandie Peggie

I think.

KateShugakIsALegend · 22/07/2025 22:00

@nocoolnamesleft thank you for this. Super clear and informative.

Appreciate you sharing your expertise.

Charabanc · 22/07/2025 22:00

TheKeatingFive · 22/07/2025 21:57

What specifically do you take issue with here Tandora?

Please do not engage Tandora. We would rather have celeriac soup recipes.

GailBlancheViola · 22/07/2025 22:00

Thank you. I cannot imagine what it must be like to watch colleagues come out with some of the disingenuous pish they've been trying to claim in this tribunal.

Not just disingenuous but offensive and dangerous, but hey that's par for the course from those parading their RSOH credentials.

ErrolTheDragon · 22/07/2025 22:01

rosiejaune · 22/07/2025 21:26

I don't know, but I suspect some people will have used it to bully people (even though it's not public). I.e. by laughing meanly at their posts, rather than in amusement.

It happens a lot on Facebook (where you can see it).

Yes, that’s why. The lack of it being public was part of the problem - if you can see someone bullying or mocking a vulnerable poster you can report or stand up for them.

littlbrowndog · 22/07/2025 22:01

Lins77 · 22/07/2025 21:59

Big Sond - judge Alexander Kemp
Wee Sondie - Sandie Peggie

I think.

Sandy is a nickname for Alexander in Scotland

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