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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
GrandmaMazur · 22/07/2025 21:31

Phew. Have finally caught up! Thank you all for all your updates and insights.

It is extraordinary that this is where we are just because a woman didn’t want to share a changing room with a man.

My thoughts:

  • Do people really believe what they’re saying? They don’t know what sex they are and doctors (doctors!) aren’t experts so don’t know how to differentiate between girl and boy babies
  • I didn’t know it was possible to use the word outwith so often
  • I’ve started to hear a Fife accent instead of my customary Glaswegian
  • Why do so many people have a grudge against celery? (Celery and cheese is a joyful combination)
  • It’s impossible to keep up with what’s going on and work - I’m going to have to put in some hours this weekend to catch up (with both)

I have laughed so much at some of the comments - you’re a funny bunch!

ThatCyanCat · 22/07/2025 21:32

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 22/07/2025 21:26

Poisonously snakes are fine, as long as you don't eat them. 🐍🍴

I read a novel once about someone who killed people using poisonous snakes. It was one of those trite murder mysteries where about 17 people die just as they're about to name the killer. And you could tell from the start who the killer was. It was - aaaaaaaargh!

Anactor · 22/07/2025 21:34

ArabellaScott · 22/07/2025 21:25

Snakes are generally venomous, not poisonous.

But I'll accept remoulade, looks lovely.

Some snakes are venomous and poisonous - which I can only assume is the snake version of ‘going for the win’.

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 22/07/2025 21:34

ThatCyanCat · 22/07/2025 21:32

I read a novel once about someone who killed people using poisonous snakes. It was one of those trite murder mysteries where about 17 people die just as they're about to name the killer. And you could tell from the start who the killer was. It was - aaaaaaaargh!

Poisonous or venomous?

borntobequiet · 22/07/2025 21:35

unwashedanddazed · 22/07/2025 21:25

There's also the time the judge takes writing everything out longhand, when there's two stenographers there taking meticulous notes. Those pauses at the end of witnesses answers are the counsel waiting for him to stop writing. Just watch JR, she politely waits for him after every answer. Then there's all the times he stops them so he can catch up. He wastes loads of their time.

I expect the writing in longhand is part of the judge’s thinking process. Writing something yourself is different from reading something someone else has written, and writing by hand is probably just as quick for someone who is used to it as typing, as well as being more aligned to their thought processes.
I think the stenographers are courtesy of the claimant’s legal team. Far better for the judge to make his own notes in his preferred way.

Charabanc · 22/07/2025 21:36

unwashedanddazed · 22/07/2025 21:25

There's also the time the judge takes writing everything out longhand, when there's two stenographers there taking meticulous notes. Those pauses at the end of witnesses answers are the counsel waiting for him to stop writing. Just watch JR, she politely waits for him after every answer. Then there's all the times he stops them so he can catch up. He wastes loads of their time.

No no no no no. You have got this all wrong.

The stenographers are not there for the judge. They are paid for separately.

The judge is making contemporaneous notes, to himself. For further enquiry, or to include in his workings out, or in the eventual judgement.

Everybody is there for the judge. He cannot waste their time.

Appalonia · 22/07/2025 21:37

anyzee · 22/07/2025 21:15

I'm wrecked having just reached the end of the posts (so far on this thread). Well done all of you who keep us posted of developments.

I have no words left to describe the cult like delusion of highly educated people like KS today. None. So I have one question if someone wouldn't mind filling me in -

Was the subject of the email posted on X by Maya F explored at all? Maybe it wasn't relevant to proceedings today, and apologies if I missed it.

No it wasnt. Which I found surprising as it has seemed to be a smoking gun. Can only hope she will question her about it directly tomorrow.

ThatCyanCat · 22/07/2025 21:38

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 22/07/2025 21:34

Poisonous or venomous?

...

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37
SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 22/07/2025 21:38

borntobequiet · 22/07/2025 21:35

I expect the writing in longhand is part of the judge’s thinking process. Writing something yourself is different from reading something someone else has written, and writing by hand is probably just as quick for someone who is used to it as typing, as well as being more aligned to their thought processes.
I think the stenographers are courtesy of the claimant’s legal team. Far better for the judge to make his own notes in his preferred way.

Must be hard to remember it all otherwise - the proceedings are not being recorded - right?

I guess that the customised screens viewers see (with their user name and names of others in the room) are intended to make simple recordings identifiable.
Does the judge get to use the transcript or this just for checking TT?

Rhaidimiddim · 22/07/2025 21:39

unwashedanddazed · 22/07/2025 21:25

There's also the time the judge takes writing everything out longhand, when there's two stenographers there taking meticulous notes. Those pauses at the end of witnesses answers are the counsel waiting for him to stop writing. Just watch JR, she politely waits for him after every answer. Then there's all the times he stops them so he can catch up. He wastes loads of their time.

That is him making his own notes, highlighting important points. The stenographers note everything.

Tandora · 22/07/2025 21:39

NotAtMyAge · 22/07/2025 21:15

Gender identity—our sense of being male or female—develops early in life. By age 2 years, most children are able to identify their own gender, which is typically consistent with the sex they were at birth.

This study falls at the first hurdle. Male and female refer to dimorphic reproductive sex, not any construct of gender stereotypes which can be categorised as masculinity or femininity.

I have no gender identity, but my sex is female - as I told the call handler from NHS 111 on Saturday when I fell ill outside surgery hours. 😉

Not sure what you mean by “falls at the first hurdle”?

Our sense of/ awareness of being male or female is what is referred to as our gender identity. It’s got nothing to do with stereotypes. You say you have no gender identity, but if you are aware/ know your sex to be female , then you do.

Thats why DU says she is female. You all keep mocking her/ being incredulous about that, but that is exactly what it is to be a transwoman. It’s to be aware / have a sense of self as female, despite being registered male at birth.

Charabanc · 22/07/2025 21:40

borntobequiet · 22/07/2025 21:35

I expect the writing in longhand is part of the judge’s thinking process. Writing something yourself is different from reading something someone else has written, and writing by hand is probably just as quick for someone who is used to it as typing, as well as being more aligned to their thought processes.
I think the stenographers are courtesy of the claimant’s legal team. Far better for the judge to make his own notes in his preferred way.

Exactly. The judge might be writing "KS sounded right dodgy there, must ask before session tomorrow why she and the other five didn't disclose that email".

That's not going to come up in records of what was actually said today.

Heggettypeg · 22/07/2025 21:41

ItisntOver · 22/07/2025 21:22

Today’s reading that is relevant to a number of issues raised in this thread, and casts an interesting sidelight on the potentially self-harming to reputation behaviour of some witnesses.

This essay is a compilation of different frameworks and considerations, like a basic reader for the topic of suicidal empathy.

Hannah Arendt and Thoughtless Compassion

Hannah Arendt offers a middle path between Nietzsche’s skepticism and Levinas’s idealism. In her exploration of the "banality of evil," Arendt warned against actions motivated by collective sentiment without critical examination. For her, compassion can be dangerous when it is unmoored from thought and reason. Even the best intentions, if not carefully considered, can perpetuate harm rather than alleviate it. Arendt’s insights are particularly relevant to the concept of suicidal empathy. She would caution against compassion that is performative or uncritical compassion that seeks to soothe immediate suffering without addressing the broader implications of its actions. For example, policies that prioritize empathy for individuals accused of wrongdoing without regard for their victims’ risk undermining the very principles of justice that sustain social order.
Arendt’s work reminds us that empathy must be guided by reason to support justice rather than enable harm. Compassion, in her view, is not inherently good; it becomes good only when it is informed by careful thought and a commitment to fairness. Her philosophy underscores the importance of balancing emotional responses with intellectual rigor.

From: Suicidal Empathy: The Danger of Compassion Without Limits —on ResearchGate: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/385740873_Suicidal_Empathy_The_Danger_of_Compassion_Without_Limits?

And an upcoming book by Gad Saad.

Yes 💯 to this.
Never "just" be kind.
Pause.
Engage your brain.
Consider everyone involved, not just the one who is whimpering and making puppy-dog eyes.
Then be kind wisely.

ickky · 22/07/2025 21:41

IKeepMyToasterInTheCupboard · 22/07/2025 20:28

Just to change the subject can someone please start talking about their superior lemon drizzle cake recipe. Or 5000 things to do with a stick of celery, I don't care.

I don't have the recipe to hand but I only had a small sad little lemon so used tangerine too.

Was lovely. 😋

nauticant · 22/07/2025 21:42

borntobequiet · 22/07/2025 21:35

I expect the writing in longhand is part of the judge’s thinking process. Writing something yourself is different from reading something someone else has written, and writing by hand is probably just as quick for someone who is used to it as typing, as well as being more aligned to their thought processes.
I think the stenographers are courtesy of the claimant’s legal team. Far better for the judge to make his own notes in his preferred way.

Years ago doing university exams I finally realised that if, instead of reading what I was supposed to be revising, I read it and summarised it in longhand, my recollection in comparison was extraordinary and I only needed to do this once rather than read and read and read again.

OP posts:
MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/07/2025 21:43

Charabanc · 22/07/2025 20:56

Haven't RTFT, but has anyone posted this yet? JR is not having a good week.

Read the judgement here:

Microsoft Word - set.wilkins.reasons.docx

https://x.com/MForstater/status/1947730180489023877

Good grief! The levels of capture in the bloody MoD fgs. Civil servants repeatedly breaching the legal requirement to be impartial by spouting trans activist hate and nonsense (no doubt in work time).

That's a horrendous and very revealing judgment. Well worth reading (or maybe Maya's summary as it's very long) - especially if you're in any workplace where you're required to be politically impartial yet are surrounded by bigoted transactivists.

meercat23 · 22/07/2025 21:43

Not wishing to take up space as I dont think I am well enough informed to contribute but just wanted to use a fairly quietish time to say thank you for this thread and for all of the posters who are posting what is happening and to those who are explaining the background. Also special thanks for the Fife commentary. 😍 Thank you all.

myplace · 22/07/2025 21:44

I have sensed a significant shift in energy from the judge between the first and second tranches
of this tribunal.
He seems less tolerant of the shenanigans of JR, Fife and DU now.

nocoolnamesleft · 22/07/2025 21:45

I really wish people would stop trying to drag people with DSDs (intersex generally rated an outdated term) into the trans debate. For the sake of any colleagues who are unsure what sex they are, please read the following:

When a baby is born, in the UK, they all have a "babycheck" performed. This is effectively an MOT. As part of this, the sex is observed. Not assigned, observed, and recorded. The vast majority of clinically significant DSDs would give rise to visible differences at this age. Such as megacliteris, fused labia majora, micropenis, bilateral undescended testes. Usually it is pretty apparent which sex the baby is despite one or more of these, but even so certain precautions are taken. The baby is urgently discussed with paediatric endocrinology, and usually reviewed by a consultant in paediatric endocrinology within 48 hours. As part of this review, in addition to history and a thorough examination, USS of the gonads is undertaken, as are blood tests for chromosomes (and also sometimes other bloods, such as 17 OH progesterone if congenital adrenal hyperplasia with female virilisation is suspected). Very very quickly the parents are informed about the sex of the baby.

The overwhelming majority of the time that sex will match the one first thought likely. Occasionally not. Incredibly rarely the phenotype (physical manifestations) may be sufficiently different from the genotype (chromosomes) that there is a discussion as whether to raise the child phenotypically or genotypically, based on what can be best achieved for a normalish life. This is a fraught area, and there's loads of evidence that decisions made to quickly by arrogant doctors can go very wrong.

Very occasionally, someone who had no differences in their genital appearance at birth it becomes apparent that something is different in puberty. This might be a phenotypical girl not having periods, for instance. And this is investigated thoroughly, and for example may find that a girl has XO genotype (Turner's, definitely female, look no Y chromosome) and streak ovaries. In over a quarter of a century of paediatrics I can literally remember only one phenotypic girl who outside infancy was discovered to have male gonads, and XY genotype. This was not a gotcha, this was an utter tragedy.

Only two forms of human gametes exist. Eggs, and sperm. No one in the history of humanity has had any other gamete. Reproduction is sexual, binary, and not on a spectrum.

Oh. and if you have ever had an actual period, you're definitely female.

Yours, a naffed off paediatrician who is speechless at captured colleagues pretending they don't know what sex is. Knowing the sex of a patient is an absolutely essential part of treating them safely.

oldwomanwhoruns · 22/07/2025 21:45

ANotWellKnownObserverInRoom4 · 22/07/2025 21:30

I admire Big Sond very much.

Can any fellow observers comment on this:

Tribunal Tweets (quoted many posts ago) wrote:

NC Anyone saying sex is a nebulous dog whistle is talking nonsense?
KS I dont know what u mean
NC explains
J I think nebulous dog whistle means quite that

I thought J said something like "I don't think nebulous dog whistle means quite that" and then explained further, but I can't remember exactly.

Wouldn't that make more sense?

You are indeed correct. The judge said that the meaning was more than NC's explanation. Then JR chimed in with her tuppeny-worth.

meercat23 · 22/07/2025 21:46

nauticant · 22/07/2025 21:42

Years ago doing university exams I finally realised that if, instead of reading what I was supposed to be revising, I read it and summarised it in longhand, my recollection in comparison was extraordinary and I only needed to do this once rather than read and read and read again.

That was my preferred method of revision too and one which I passed on to my grandchildren. I think the theory behind it is something like, if you take in the information using one method and then record it using a different method, it sticks better.

Waitwhat23 · 22/07/2025 21:46

I've seen someone mention elsewhere that JR told the judge in February that in asking about NHS's (non) compliance with the disclosure order that NC was 'looking for something that simply isn't there'.

If so, JR has comprehensively proven herself wrong.

OnlyAWomansHeart · 22/07/2025 21:47

SternlyMatthews · 22/07/2025 19:45

They are using Exchange, so competent & authorized admins could do a trawl, alongside 'what have you got, kiddies?'

This is a really great point and one not understood here or by the tribunal maybe?

Exchange is basically a massive google search on all the written docs and emails across NHS Fife. It’s a very easy interface and you can search outlook, teams, etc for a key word - say Protected Characteristic- and additionally you can put in a date range and names of email accounts to search. Someone could find the missing emails in a heartbeat.

What it can also do is put a hold on emails. So if I get a request for disclosure we put a legal hold on all emails - so that no one can delete an email from our archive. In this case someone say Kate might delete an email but it would turn up in the exchange search.

Of course you would need to be honest and want to comply with your disclosure provisions.

By way of example - I was involved in an investigation relating to fraud - and folks were using document editing software and emailing each other about it on emails which they thought they had then deleted. One used the term - ‘wipeout’ so I searched on that term through exchange and it brought up a nice list of all the documents which had been subject to their ‘wipeout’ process.

So NHS Fife legal could get permission to do the same. They’ll have the ability.

Charabanc · 22/07/2025 21:47

myplace · 22/07/2025 21:44

I have sensed a significant shift in energy from the judge between the first and second tranches
of this tribunal.
He seems less tolerant of the shenanigans of JR, Fife and DU now.

Yes, I meant to comment this earlier in reply to another post about his difference between February and now.

Back in February, he probably thought that NHS Fife were a relatively competent organisation that didnt conceal evidence from the court...

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 22/07/2025 21:47

ThatCyanCat · 22/07/2025 21:38

...

I am headed for whichever circle of hell is reserved for pendants.

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