NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

In an attempt to sidestep the derailing and to talk about the substance of this thread, going back to the 6 senior people and the secret email group, wasn't the point NC was making was that there was an email chain with Re: in the title but there wasn't one email without it, meaning that the originating email wasn't present? Wasn't that the cause of NC asking KS whether she ever deliberately titled her (non-reply) emails with Re: and KS hesitating and trying to reply in a way to suggest that sometimes she might do this when obviously it was something she'd never done?

I take 2 hours out to woman badly and shout at the football, and you've ratcheted up another 500 posts!

None of what @nocoolnamesleft said seemed oversimplified to me. It was full of nuance and thoughtful consideration as to how the decisions and results might affect the patients and their families. Just because something isn’t as complicated and mysterious as you think it should be, doesn’t mean it’s over-simplified. You might just be wrong.

Great post. Ta muchly

She also asked LC about this and apparently LC didn’t know what re: meant.

So my account id is filthy rich and I am off on a spending spree tomorrow. I expect all the stores to recognise that and to ignore any card declined messages. If my bank say my account is overdrawn I will notify the police.

Please don't let it go to penalties, I couldn't cope with that again!

I give you a million, I say million I mean a brass button but it will identify as a million. 🔘💷

This feels linked to tribalism as well- including RSOH.

I’m regularly chastised by my mother for being rational- she wants a no holds barred, ‘of course the horrible man was in the wrong for being taller than you and making it hard for you to see’, and a ‘Of course you should be allowed to park wherever you like, and time limited don’t apply to nice old ladies like you!’.

No thinking is required, reserve your sympathy for who I tell you to sympathise with. I’ve made it easier for you, the victim and oppressor are clearly labelled so you know who to cheer and who to boo. No need to form an opinion.

It’s still on. 🙌🙌 cmon lionesses

I think so, too, for Big Sond.
Big -> Excellent, great, admirable
Alexander -> Sandy -> Sond (in Fife accent, as reported by Fifer)

Fifer - writer of excellent summaries of Tribunal Tweets, as reported by BezMills

That would be very easy to do, although it hadn't occurred to me to do so. I have previously deleted one from a chain I was forwarding on, but because it was rude, and not relevant to the discussion. And if I'd thought at any point it would be seen by a tribunal I would not have done so, as IT would have retrieved it, it was in the interests of diplomacy in a matter or research.

I’m way behind so no idea if anyone picked this up already but Michael Foran suggested that Fife can’t go for the GRC Defence because their practice (no written policy) was self ID

Would have been this same infamous email trail.

That's my understanding. She seemed really rattled - didn't she say something 'I might sometimes do that, I don't know'. She definitely didn't have an answer ready!

None of what said seemed oversimplified to me.

It seemed a clear explanation to give to lay people like we are. No doubt the paediatrician in question would write something more involved if writing a chapter for a medical textbook.

Who would those consequences be meted out by?

I feel that depressing as it is, there are many many other trusts operating in a similar way.

Imagine if wee IT guy (on skateboard and backward baseball cap) has gotten NC the entire contents of this trail. That would be interesting. Especially if they’d tried to hide it. Wouldn’t want to speculate though.

His name is Alexander - Sandy - in Fife dialect Big Sond (Say Sandy in a Scottish accent outloud)

My nerves can't take it 😭

I’ve been reading Big Sond as Scotts for ‘Big noise’- very important person.

Doh. Sandy all along.

This is why there’s an insistence that words aren’t a question of fact, but of perspective. If you once admit that words can express a truth, rather than a perspective…

… well, then, the statement ‘You, as a man, should not be in the woman’s changing room,’ can express truth.

Two truths. One is that however anyone feels, certain realities are inescapable. The other is that however anyone may feel, breaking societal norms/the law can have consequences.

So words are used as camouflage, used to hide from that inescapable reality, rather than as communication. Because the reality is that someone born male can never be female, and someone born female can never be male.

And that can’t be admitted. It’s is too painful. So there are no facts, only perspectives, no truths, only words that can mean whatever the speaker wishes them to mean.

A retreat into fantasy, with reality forever unspoken.

The court can make an order for greater compensation because they haven’t revealed everything they should have done.

They can bring a contempt of court action where another court can look at it and fine NHS Fife if found guilty.

I’m not sure if they can involve the Information Commissioner, but he’s already pissed off with them, so they better hope he has no jurisdiction.

1,000 additional documents - WTAF?!

Aah, I see! Thank you!

My Paternal grandfather was a Scottish Alexander known as Sandy, so should have twigged.

I’ll blame it on us not having anything to do with that side of the family lol

Listening to Michael Foran who goes over this in some detail he makes it much clearer than TT.

There was an original email set up for the 6 by ED who had been appointed to lead the investigation at that time.

The email group also included witness alongside the ED as I/x lead.

In the email ED instructs them, basically, to keep schtumm about what they discuss ie don’t mention what goes on in the email thread to anyone outwith the group. The first rule of Fight Club etc.

When the purportedly full email chain was submitted with the updated disclosure this email, the first of the chain, was cut off. Ie someone had deleted it.

NC puts it to KS that the reason for this is that it’s highly embarrassing and they didn’t want it to come to light.

KS says you can’t prove that email was part of that chain or that it was deleted.