NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

The struggle session beloved of Chairman Mao?

The similarities of GI and the adherents thereof to authoritarian regimes which impose absolute control really is uncanny.

From Boswell Today on Twitter or X or whatever

Two sessions, one message: NHS Fife protects feelings. But only some. Women’s rights? Belief-based objections? Evidence chains? Those are inconvenient truths - easily forgotten, like a CC line in a damning email. And if six people forget it at once? That’s called a policy

Well, I did tell Tandora the snake was poisonous, but apparently that was a question of perspective…

Would be great if they are all makeup, black nail polish and a leather trench coat. Maybe they could ride in on a skateboard

Celery in redness over knitting spring at Brighton their/them rustic teacakes shrinking it renewed wombat.

Or for those who don't quite get what I'm trying to say communication only works if everyone has some sort of idea what the words used actually mean.

Fingers crossed

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/viewpoint/25329964.compared-tommy-robinson---nurses-hit-rcn-gender-ruling/

'Two more members of the Royal College of Nursing (RCN) have come forward following news that Sandie Peggie is suing the union for failing to support her in her case against Fife NHS. '

'Now, two other Scots nurses have provided a detailed account of what they call the “extremely hostile atmosphere” they experienced for raising concerns about women’s single-sex spaces, such as bathrooms and changing rooms.

This came to a head during two RCN online engagement sessions on the Supreme Court Judgment on Legal Definition of Sex in the Equality Act 2010. ...

One of them, Jenny Wilmott, said she was subjected to a ferocious onslaught by other members when she sought to provide her views on the Supreme Court judgment. The other, a globally renowned specialist in clinical nursing and a Quality Improvement Chair, wishes to remain anonymous for the time being as she considers future options. She said she’d been “thrown out of the session” after she’d attempted to voice concerns about some of the responses she was hearing.'
...
"One woman said that views like mine were racist; that I was a terf; that exclusionary people like me shouldn’t be given a platform and that my words were a danger to vulnerable people.
“Making an accusation like this is the worst you can level at a nurse.'
...
'“I made a comment to the effect that gender isn’t a protected characteristic but that gender-re-assigned was. I said that all minorities need protected. And that we needed to be careful that we operate within the law and according to guidance.
“That drew gasps from a previous speaker, who then started to cry. There were expressions of shock.
“Some participants became very upset and stated how discriminatory my comment was. Yet all I’d stated was fact.'

https://archive.ph/J5Pgq

Today’s reading that is relevant to a number of issues raised in this thread, and casts an interesting sidelight on the potentially self-harming to reputation behaviour of some witnesses.

This essay is a compilation of different frameworks and considerations, like a basic reader for the topic of suicidal empathy.

Hannah Arendt and Thoughtless Compassion

Hannah Arendt offers a middle path between Nietzsche’s skepticism and Levinas’s idealism. In her exploration of the "banality of evil," Arendt warned against actions motivated by collective sentiment without critical examination. For her, compassion can be dangerous when it is unmoored from thought and reason. Even the best intentions, if not carefully considered, can perpetuate harm rather than alleviate it. Arendt’s insights are particularly relevant to the concept of suicidal empathy. She would caution against compassion that is performative or uncritical compassion that seeks to soothe immediate suffering without addressing the broader implications of its actions. For example, policies that prioritize empathy for individuals accused of wrongdoing without regard for their victims’ risk undermining the very principles of justice that sustain social order.
Arendt’s work reminds us that empathy must be guided by reason to support justice rather than enable harm. Compassion, in her view, is not inherently good; it becomes good only when it is informed by careful thought and a commitment to fairness. Her philosophy underscores the importance of balancing emotional responses with intellectual rigor.

From: Suicidal Empathy: The Danger of Compassion Without Limits —on ResearchGate: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/385740873_Suicidal_Empathy_The_Danger_of_Compassion_Without_Limits?

And an upcoming book by Gad Saad.

And the trans point of view only works if the meanings of words are 'dynamic'

it's all made up mumbo jumbo

I’ve just googled and they are different parts of the same plant. My bad. Must be a philosophical meaning surely :-)

Compassion, in her view, is not inherently good; it becomes good only when it is informed by careful thought and a commitment to fairness.

Snakes are generally venomous, not poisonous.

But I'll accept remoulade, looks lovely.

There's also the time the judge takes writing everything out longhand, when there's two stenographers there taking meticulous notes. Those pauses at the end of witnesses answers are the counsel waiting for him to stop writing. Just watch JR, she politely waits for him after every answer. Then there's all the times he stops them so he can catch up. He wastes loads of their time.

If nothing else comes from this debacle I hope every medical school in the country is busy including a very robust course on how to observe biological sex at birth, and what investigations are required if undeterminable, into their curriculum from this September.

It is astonishing that fully qualified doctors are claiming ignorance, At my dental school we were taught embryology, conception to birth with comprehensive tuition of how every organ system develops, obviously emphasis on the head and neck. But I could confidently observe a babies sex and probably still name a few of the common syndromes identifiable at birth.

Anything out of the ordinary is pretty obvious and time to get the geneticist involved.

I don't know, but I suspect some people will have used it to bully people (even though it's not public). I.e. by laughing meanly at their posts, rather than in amusement.

It happens a lot on Facebook (where you can see it).

Poisonously snakes are fine, as long as you don't eat them. 🐍🍴

good example of a union not actually caring about members who pay their subscriptions for years and years.

those subscriptions help pay for all the union jollies and union wages. The RCN will only support nurses who toe the line, it’s the same with teaching unions.

Just catching up from NZ. This really is a pathetic shit show.

KS (who I originally thought stood for Kier Starmer), needs to learn about the Drama Triange principle, I find it very useful in these types of situations.

I am concerened about the headline that BBC iused to report on KS testimony. It implies that SP displayed criminal behaviour for which she has been completely cleared of. I am going to pay a bit more attention to the coverage of the beeb and make a compaint when it is over as I don't think the reporting is fair and balanced.

“That drew gasps from a previous speaker, who then started to cry. There were expressions of shock."

That's just bonkers, but this is what you get when you employ the unemployable.

He needs to keep notes (a) to stay focussed and (b) because the act of writing notes puts it all in his memory much more effectively than merely listening. Also he will be writing comments to himself on the witnesses’ demeanour, etc.

There is a place for celeriac, finely chopped in a strong tomato broth as the base of a fine soupe de poisson
Celery is not an option here due to its fibrous substructure

It's deflective crapflooding and it's not even current. "DSDs mean men can be women" was untrue even when it was fashionable about five to seven years ago, it was shite then and it's shite now, but right now there's a LOT of serious stuff they're desperate to bury.

I admire Big Sond very much.

Can any fellow observers comment on this:

Tribunal Tweets (quoted many posts ago) wrote:

NC Anyone saying sex is a nebulous dog whistle is talking nonsense?
KS I dont know what u mean
NC explains
J I think nebulous dog whistle means quite that

I thought J said something like "I don't think nebulous dog whistle means quite that" and then explained further, but I can't remember exactly.

Wouldn't that make more sense?

Thanks I'll make a note of the title, I heard the expression 'suicidal empathy' somewhere months back, and it stuck in my mind because it seem so fitting.