Peggie case: controversial opinion

[SecretNameforMN]

I realise I will probably be lambasted for this and be forced to change my username, but I am going to say it anyway because I genuinely believe it.

I've been a feminist for over 50 years; my entire adult life, in fact.

I am posting because I want to discover whether any other woman, even just ONE, agrees with me.

I have followed the Peggie case very closely and am struck my the fact that it is WOMEN who have taken sides with Upton and against Peggie, who coddled him and suspended her and are now beclowning themselves during their court testimony, as well as exposing their anti-female bias. AFAIK everyone who has given testimony against her is, sadly, female. It horrifies me of course to see women in power siding with men against other women.

I have come to suspect that this debacle would not be happening if all the people in power (those who enabled Upton to use the nurse's changing rooms and those who suspended and who have publicly turned against Sandie Peggie) had been male instead of female.

I suspect if all these positions had been held by males they would not have been driven by the social conditioning to "be kind" to a man who, having had no surgery and not even bothering to get a GRC was in effect just a cross-dresser. I suspect they would have worried about the optics of being men punishing a woman for not wanting to undress in front of someone they knew to be a heterosexual, genitally intact male. I suspect they would have checked the legal position more thoroughly, and, lastly, I don't think a married man with a senior position in the NHS would stand up in court and say he didn't know if he was male or female.

Please don't respond if you are just going to pile on an avalanche of vitriol onto me. I am not looking for that: I am just wanting to find out if there are any other women on here who suspect there may be even a modicum of possiblity that my suspicions may have good cause.

“It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies and nosers-out of unorthodoxy.”
― George Orwell, 1984

I always thought this was sexist but really it's spot on. Women have their fair share of negative traits too, but non-violent. And the men just don't care in this case, except for maybe the more right-leaning ones who are a bit more territorial/protective? (a trait which can be good or bad for women).

https://unherd.com/newsroom/why-are-young-women-tearing-down-israeli-hostage-posters/

I don't really think your view is very controversial, but it could be taken the wrong way or as "proof" for misogynists.

Will Storr describes this performative virtue well in The Status Game: on social position and how we use it.

When he was interviewed about the book he highlighted the performative ‘better parent than you’ and ‘better at doormatting than you’ status games on MN.

Love this video. This is what most people think. So why are common sense views verboten? Change can't come soon enough.

I haven't RTFT but it's a little more complex than that. Females are socialised as children that they should prioritise males. And because of men ruling the world and controlling the narrative, women and girls feel indebted. Blaming women for this is like victim-blaming. Women and girls are brainwashed. Brainwashed to be on their hands and knees for men. The most violently hatefully toxic and aggressive advocates of trans ideology from experience, have been males. And when you have that around you, as a female, it's hard to break out of that. Especially if you want to survive.

See also 'sex work' and commercial surrogacy. Does my head in. As a proper working class socialist and radical feminist, anything that disproportionately effects working class women negatively riles me up. Bet you your last fiver these women wouldn't want to do either of those things, or want it for any of the women/girls they care about.
Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox. 🧼

I think you raise a very fair point op and I'm not sure why you expected to be lambasted for it. There was a thread quite recently about why so many women support and enable trans ideology. And yes, the way women closed ranks around Dr Upton to denounce Sandie Peggie has been very uncomfortable to watch.

I'm sure there are multiple interconnected reasons, not least female socialisation to put everyone else's needs first. It feels like a 21st Century take on 'Have the men had enough?'

Also - and yes this is observation and anecdote, not data - I've found that women, as a group, are far more loyal to the left then men, and also more trusting.

I don't think it's about blame either.

I believe it's definitely something we need to talk about because, if we don't, the same thing will keep on happening.

Bring back girl only schools, girls are then educated that their intellect matters, that they matter, that their worth is not dependent on pleasing men. The biggest disservice to women and girls was the insistence on mixed sex secondary schools, imo.

Does it surprise me that women are sucked into ‘be kind’? Are desperate to be seen to be doing the right thing? Of course not.

And plenty of otherwise sensible men seem oblivious to the reasons any woman might question ‘Transwomen are women’ at the point of getting undressed.

So, while it is frustrating to have watched women oversee this debacle I am not confident that men, in general, would have managed it better.

I'm sure a lot of men believe their problems are caused by women

I broadly agree, OP.

Granted most NHS staff are women so you'd expect more females to be supporting him than males, but the imbalance is staggering. It's not just this case: every time something likes this happens we find loads of women fussing & clucking around these men

I read the other day that most people with their pronouns in their bios are women. It's part & parcel of the same thing.

I loathe it, as I loathe them.

Well, the male style when you've got a problem with someone is direct confrontation. Which may or may not mean physical aggression, but it brings the issue to a head.

The female style is covert undermining, ostracism and mobbing. Let's add on women trying to win social capital by proving how nice they are when they shun the sinner.

I've known men who would have a shouting match, blow off steam and resolve their differences. I've known women who would be nice as pie to your face while covertly undermining you for literally years.

You can't really adopt the male confrontational style in a modern professional setting, especially not in a female-dominated professional setting. Which means, if you're not careful, that the female undermining style can become the default.

Also there's a huge class element to this, which is arguably just as important as the sex difference.

Many men see it as 'not their issue'. That can sometimes be from a shrugging 'don't care, doesn't affect me', but I'd say it's also often from a 'women's issue, not getting involved' standpoint.

Given the state of men who call themselves feminists, I'm not sure that's all that surprising, either.

However, if I were a man, I would be looking at it from the standpoint of authoritarianism, freedom of speech, institutional coercion, social cohesion, absurdity, and yes, probably from considering the women in my life and children.

I can say this with great confidence because I'm non binary, which means my brain has womanly parts and manly parts, so I can ask it things.

“I can say this with great confidence because I'm non binary, which means my brain has womanly parts and manly parts, so I can ask it things.”

Say what now? 🤔

Many men see it as 'not their issue'. That can sometimes be from a shrugging 'don't care, doesn't affect me', but I'd say it's also often from a 'women's issue, not getting involved' standpoint.

There's definitely a thing with some men where they see two groups of women yelling at each other and their primal instinct is to back away very quickly.

Beyond that, I'd guess that men who are more working class, maybe a little more conservative in their outlook, even if they do see it as a women's issue, they'll not believe in genderwoo for a second. The trick is to get them emotionally invested - sport is good, because the lack of fairness is very visual, and if you ask them about boys having access to their daughter's changing room they will immediately say fuck no.

It's the male feminists who are a bigger problem. Apart from the old gag about "male feminist" being a huge red flag in itself, they all seem to have decided that it's the new exciting women, the ones with cocks, who they need to support.

And of course there are men in professional environments who'll just pay lip service to what's fashionable. But, outside of a small number of gay men who think this is their struggle all over again, I don't see men going in for the kind of handmaidening that we're seeing in Fife. It really takes status conscious women to fuck women over.

Op I sort of agree with you.

My experience as a young women in a male industry was my boss's were protective of me.
They wouldn't put me into a situation they wouldn't put their DD's into.
Maybe that mentality is a thing of the past.

But I can't get my head around these women who were falling over themselves to 'be kind' but absolutely didn't give a shinny shit for the women, and girls who were sharing that changing room. And some probably were only teenagers.

But there again look at the schools and the prison service. And the female politicians who don't give a shinny shit either.

🙄

There’s a thread about another tribunal
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5299380-scientists-at-porton-down-dont-believe-in-biological-sex?reply=143030170?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

in this case, the problem started with a man defending a gender critical female scientist , and being systematically bullied by his colleagues - mostly men it seems.

I think a lot of witnesses were picked BECAUSE they were women "see see all these real women think she is wrong she is an outlier a stand alone no-one else in this environment has an issue just her"

Men are more likely to step back and consider this a 'women's issue' and not their area to sort out (even though it involves a man, but maybe he doesn't count). Then when it blows up you don't see them for dust.

This particular TW - who is clearly masculine and heterosexual - seems to have formed himself a “quasi harem” of besotted women who do everything they can to make him happy. His relationship with the most senior of them appears, from behaviour and testimony, to be unsettlingly unprofessional.

I’ve often wondered why so many young women have fallen for this bizarre, anti-women ideology. DH was quite shocked that the crowd banging on the windows, while I was at a feminist talk inside, were at least as many women as men. It’s discouraging, but there have always been women who debase themselves to please men. They want to keep in with the patriarchy.

It's very strange. Try to imagine a heterosexual man presenting as a heterosexual man who acquires this weird harem-like collection of women working on his behalf.

Maybe Bill Clinton in his prime, but I don't think many others could pull it off.

It's as if, for some women, the transwoman functions as a fetish, not in the sexual sense but in the religious sense. They acquire holiness by proximity to a member of the sacred caste.

I was convent educated and the nuns used to get in quite a tizzy when a priest was around. I found it unsettling then, and am reminded of it now.

There's evidence that women value kindness above truth more than men. They also value inclusion more highly than free speech.
They judge other women who value truth and freedom as harsh and use group exclusion and reputation damage to keep them in line.
Women are (on average) more conformist, more agreeable and more religious.

You look at those differences and it becomes quite clear that areas with women in power will support an ideology based on compassion and inclusion, and the tactics they'll use togetothers to conform.

That's exactly what we're seeing in the Sandie Peggie trial.

It's also why girl guides the WI, Academia, HR, psychology, schools have been so easy to capture.

Whether it's socialisation or innate difference or both is irrelevant. The outcome is the same.

Thank God for the brave disagreeable women who have spoken up despite the punishment