Peggie case: controversial opinion

[SecretNameforMN]

I realise I will probably be lambasted for this and be forced to change my username, but I am going to say it anyway because I genuinely believe it.

I've been a feminist for over 50 years; my entire adult life, in fact.

I am posting because I want to discover whether any other woman, even just ONE, agrees with me.

I have followed the Peggie case very closely and am struck my the fact that it is WOMEN who have taken sides with Upton and against Peggie, who coddled him and suspended her and are now beclowning themselves during their court testimony, as well as exposing their anti-female bias. AFAIK everyone who has given testimony against her is, sadly, female. It horrifies me of course to see women in power siding with men against other women.

I have come to suspect that this debacle would not be happening if all the people in power (those who enabled Upton to use the nurse's changing rooms and those who suspended and who have publicly turned against Sandie Peggie) had been male instead of female.

I suspect if all these positions had been held by males they would not have been driven by the social conditioning to "be kind" to a man who, having had no surgery and not even bothering to get a GRC was in effect just a cross-dresser. I suspect they would have worried about the optics of being men punishing a woman for not wanting to undress in front of someone they knew to be a heterosexual, genitally intact male. I suspect they would have checked the legal position more thoroughly, and, lastly, I don't think a married man with a senior position in the NHS would stand up in court and say he didn't know if he was male or female.

Please don't respond if you are just going to pile on an avalanche of vitriol onto me. I am not looking for that: I am just wanting to find out if there are any other women on here who suspect there may be even a modicum of possiblity that my suspicions may have good cause.

Same shit different century…..

During the Scottish witch trials, women frequently accused other women of witchcraft. While both men and women were accused, women were disproportionately targeted, and a significant portion of accusations came from other women.

While men were also accused and executed, women were more likely to be targeted and to be accused by other women.

Older women, who might have been more assertive or outspoken, were particularly vulnerable to accusations.

Modern day accusers stand to gain social capital and career advancement, by being seen to be the most progressive, the most kind, the most empathetic, to a small cohort of people which they deem as being oppressed. Pick me handmaidens are some of the worst traitors to their own sex class, usually insufferably smug and condescending too.

@DustyWindowsills “men often don't understand why gender issues are such a big deal for women”

I’m not sure. I think it’s pretty obvious to them, but then they see a very vocal and often highly emotive group of women arguing the opposite, and that’s too confusing and they kind of withdraw. Men aren’t equipped to be the opposite side on that kind of argument, especially when it’s on a “women’s issue” (and tbh most of the time staying out of it actually would be the right thing to do).

It's the Crucible played out in a hospital setting.

IMO these women were all wary and fearful when a trans ID man rocked up with his well educated voice and middle class connections. He was unpredictable, entitled with the potential of being be a major threat to their cozy world. It was a waiting game to see if he would go victim hunting and they edged their bets to make sure it wouldn't be them. Fingers crossed he would move on before unleashing chaos.

All the women in this case considered him to be high risk.

The mixed emotions when he fixatated on an older, working class women must have been overwhelming. Relief it wasn't them and anger because why did SHE have to make a fuss and poke the tiger. Uppity biddy. She should have been a team player. Just a few weeks and he would be gone - why make life difficult for everyone.

So they play the game. Placate and cajole the bully and bitch about the bullied - and they were trapped.

I think men risk assess differently and dont see the problem in the same way.

Yeah, I agree they withdraw. Anything for a quiet life!

I guess I mean they don't always understand women's attitudes to men, e.g. that we don't really think they're all rapists but we know some of them are (but not which ones), and that we put TW in the same class because they are also big and male. They're more likely to think of TW as dainty and feminine and therefore not a problem for women.

Obvs this is just a generalisation based on my experience.

No I don't think if the men were in charge of NHS Fife they wouldn't have let a man into the women's changing rooms. Apart from the fact that the okey dokey wokey blokey's are just as bad as the handmaiden's, CEOs and senior leaders, regardless of their sex, have embraced DEI enthusiastically, because they're driven by the allure of external recognition and awards. The more achievements they can claim the more they can bolster their position during contract renegotiations, which means more lucrative contract terms.

I don't agree with this. I think when women on here say "why should it be women's responsibility to solve mens problems" they are talking about several very specific issues that are men's problems. The three main ones on MN are:

1 - men in men's toilets accepting trans identifying/gender non-conforming men.
That is entirely a men's problem. It's not up to women to sort out who men accept in their toilets. Men need to do it. They are the only ones that can do it. It's their toilets.

2 - male violence against women. That is a men's problem. Men need to take responsibility for their own behaviour. Men need to call out other men on their unacceptable behaviour, speak out against MVAWG and pull other men up on sexism and misogyny. Again, men need to do it. It's not up to women to tell them to do it.

3 - absent/non-paying/abusive fathers. Again, a men's problem. Men need to indicate to other men that none of that is acceptable. Men are the only ones who can communicate that to other men and really get through from a man's perspective.

Women can absolutely expect men to be on their side when it comes to women's rights because any decent bloke should be in a civilised society. Women are well used to sorting out their own specific womeny problems, always have done and always will do. With support from men, not expecting men to do it.

We need more guys like this:

Burn the witch. Pick your favourite tune to build a pyre by.

I think you have a point but I would add something else. I think probably a lot of men would be more likely to stick up for SP, possibly because they can see the stupidity of it all but also because they wouldnt want to seem sexist. However, I really think there is a subset of men who are well aware of what this ideology means for women and are actually welcoming it as a way to get back at us for some perceived slight or just general misogyny which has become mainstream. "Women have very little idea of how much men hate them". A few years ago I would have thought Greer was exaggerating. Now, my eyes have been opened.

Hmm, it's an interesting question. I think possibly it's more due to transgenderism being more widely accepted, and organisations, wanting to be seen as progressive, or wanting to avoid future lawsuits, pushing 'acceptance' without really thinking of the consequences.

Some women will fully buy in, because they don't want to rock the boat, and they want to advance their careers. Nearly every woman in a career is painfully aware how carefully they have to tread compared to men, so are potentially more likely to feel that they have to be compliant.

Some women will buy in because they want to be kind, and don't want to discriminate against a minority. Most don't know about AGP or people like Isla Bryson, because they assume the best of people. Even if they have doubts, they worry that those doubts come from the same place as racism or homophobia - women are generally socialised to be more introspective and self-doubting.

If they see someone sticking their head above the parapet, they may jump on it because that's what their work policy says they should do, or they're worried about being tainted as guilty by association, or they'll think the person is genuinely awful for being a bigot.

I think we see less of it from men (the traditional kind...), because generally, it doesn't affect them, so they don't care, and they feel that they have enough social standing that not caring either way won't negatively impact on them.

AFAIK everyone who has given testimony against her is, sadly, female.

Is that who in post or who been chosen - ie have they chosen women to represent hopsital becuase they couldn't possibly be anti women and thus try and make hoisptal position seem more resoanable?

I know the post office ITV drama made some point about post office having a lot of women - and then reading actually many of the problems started while men were in those positions - bit of a glass cliff situation but also look they found nasty women not kind nurtring ones so we know they are evil as short hand in drama. When in RL the entire management structure and office culture at post office was wrong regardless of the sex of people in the posts.

Though if you told me it actually was the Crucible played out in a hospital setting - I wouldn't be shocked TBH beased on nearly 50 years on the planet.

"Be nice"

We are called names when we disagree.

That's why.

I can not believe anyone sane actually believes men can turn into women.

I think it's an interesting point, but I think it's complex, depending on workplace cultures/leadership.

There is socialisation of women to consider other's thoughts and feelings before their own (along with their safety/best interests).

I have worked in both male dominated and female dominated environments and they are quite different, although the main difference I found depended on the leadership - it could steer things one way or another - each could be bullying or supportive dependent on this.

Male environments often focus on team cohesion and can use drinking culture to achieve this. Men who don't fit into traditional male environments can be treated quite badly - seen as 'not a man' - and in this case I think men can reject men who behave this way as 'other'.

I found male led environments to be quite protective of women, particularly if they were in the minority and often could be over-protective, especially if older/brought up to be 'gentlemanly'. I think these men would view a man pushing themselves into a female environment as problematic and might act on it.

Younger men have been told this sort of 'chivalry' is wrong and sexist, which it can be and might think 'well it's up to women to sort it out - it's their problem' or might fear overstepping.

Men who don't like women/resent them may actively enjoy the discomfort of women in this situation.

I think few men would feel comfortable openly criticising/commenting on someone's crossdressing/female presenting fetish in the workplace and I think most workplaces at the moment would discourage/punish a man who tried to intervene in what toilets/changing rooms they used.

I don't agree that these are solely mens problems to solve. Men are raised by women, taught by women at school. You cannot absolve women of the responsibility of modifying mens behaviour when a big chunk of mens behaviour is shaped by women when they are boys. Everyone is responsible for ending VAWG. From socialisation of young boys to enforcing the law and preventative measures against adult men. Female police officers, female teachers, female judges. All of these people are responsible for combating VAWG and abusive men who treat their wives badly.

You only have to look at the drivel posted on the relationship board to see that women settle for shit men and tolerate all sorts of low level crappy behaviour. It is women's responsibility to say "no, I will not serve you first and let my dinner go cold while I wash your clothes". We teach people how to treat us by allowing them to treat us certain ways and until women own that responsibility and stop waiting for men to bully eachother into buying their wives flowers and doing half the housework nothing will change. Of course it is mens responsibility to be good husbands and treat their wives well, but when they fall short of that standard it is women's responsibility to say no, that is not acceptable and end the relationship if they are unhappy.

There is this awful culture in media where men are portrayed as bumbling idiots who can't even make a sandwich and the women roll their eyes and say well you can't expect any more from them can you while cooking, looking after 3 kids, battling the MIL and being stressed out of their minds. It's this "not my job to make him a decent husband and he can't do any better anyway" attitude that perpetuates the useless shitty husband.

As for the transwomen not feeling comfortable in men's toilets being solely mens problem just proves my point. Lots of women suffer problems that are caused by other women, women are dismissed and belittled by other women in maternity care in particular. It is the midwives bullying the labouring mothers and doing things without their consent and ignoring their wishes resulting in harm to mothers and babies. For men to just say well that only affects women and only midwives can stop the bullying of pregnant so it is for women to sort out, not our problem wouldn't go down well with feminists but I honestly don't see how you could expect any different.

What I do find concerning is the complete hash they seem to have made of the whole situation

If you do it right you can sack almost anyone and they won't have any case against you but this is a right mess

The difference is this and many other problems women face are caused by men

I dont agree with you but i think its an interesting point about whether a man would be so ready to force a woman to undress in front of Upton. So often you see an attitude among women of “we’ve all put up with it so you have to too”.

I'm wondering how it would have panned out if Nurse Peggie had approached a male administrator, who, by dint of his senior position, won't have been a woke teenager but an ordinary sort of managerial, perhaps mid-40s, married-with-kids sort of bloke, and told him there's a man in my changing room.

If he had replied that Dr Upton was allowed to be there, she could them have put him on the spot by asking him if HE would consider it acceptable to go into a female change room and watch women undress. How about a male getting his wife or daughter alone in such a room? He would immediately have seen the absurdity and maybe things would not have progressed to a confrontation, suspension and court case.

Maybe.

We had teen DD when DH was that age - he couldn't see the many problems or thought they could be managed and lots of be kind.

Wasn't till he had issue in his workplace management passing buck lots of unreasonableness - actually started by an activist not trans student (HE) - everyone ended off pissed off and upset even when guidelines were followed that he did much more WTF.

That theoretical male manager could easily hide behind workplace rules or assumptions like the male in question would be considerate or that there were screens/cubicles and not engage with counter argumenent. It would really depend on character/experiences of that man and workplace culture - and frankly there are women managers out there who did push back even with threats to their careers - so I really don't think this is a man vs women issue just disappointment so many women refused to see the clear issues for their own reasons.

I agree. But I would add ‘middle class’ girls are more likely to be groomed to be kind, polite, quiet and good. And they’re more likely to have been promoted to positions of power than working class girls who were from plain truth speaking backgrounds.

I agree, OP, and like a poster above, I think there's a class dimension to it. Working class people, whether women or men, are much less likely to be on board with TWAW and TMAM.

Unfortunately it's the middle class who control everything, politics, academia, the arts, sport, etc etc. So here we are.

I have a friend who is a doctor, though currently not working. Her experience of the NHS was that misogyny and bullying were rife and that senior doctors could get away with almost anything because others would cover up for them and close ranks.

It’s quite possible that, for a woman to achieve promotion within that atmosphere, she almost inevitably has to buy into that anti-woman mentality.

I find it very difficult to predict how it would have gone, had the managers been male. There are too many possible factors. There are, for example, quite a few gay men who are adamant that other men who want access to women’s spaces must have access and that all women who object are evil.

The paternal type man, who might have been sympathetic to Sandie used to be common in Scotland, but I think they’re a dying breed. There are a lot more young, idealistic men, getting rapid promotion on the back of their “progressive” views.

I pretty much agree. Women can be utterly appalling in their zeal to 'out lovely' each other. There's huge social cachet for women in being performatively kind it's hardly surprising that it's catnip to so many.

I think they all support it for different reasons.

Women are showing how capable they think they are, making a show of their lack of vulnerability (not like those other, weak willed women), letting colleagues know that they are part of the gang. I used to have a pretty senior job in the HQ of a big bank and I absolutely recognise this attitude. Women were having babies with practically no mention of it, and back to work with no mention of the kids - you drank and socialised like the men, you made absolutely no concession to being seen as female. That was seen by everyone as weakness.

The men I think are doing it because it's a no trainer to keep quiet. It doesn't affect them and they can see the way the wind is blowing. Some hate women of course and like winding us up.

These pro-trans zealots are the modern day equivalent of Mao's Red Guard.

We're all part of a system so it's not to blame women in particular, it's just an observation.