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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

DH -v- The WI, Thread 2

703 replies

Another2Cats · 22/07/2025 07:33

@RareGoalsVerge rightly pointed out (thank you) on my previous thread that it was getting near the limit and that I should start a second thread, so this is it.

This is a link to the first thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5333650-an-update-to-the-wi-announcement-thread-my-dh-just-got-a-reply-to-his-application-to-join-them

So, a recap.

DH has long had an interest in a couple of activities that were only offered locally by the WI. Obviously, it never crossed his mind to try and join as the WI is a woman only organisation - or so he thought.

But then, following the FWS case, the WI made an announcement that they would continue accepting trans identifying men (TIM) as members.

I suggested to DH that he could now join the WI and jokingly said (although it wasn't really funny, I'm not good at jokes) that he wouldn't have to bother with a wig and lippy any more.

So DH applied to join the local federation and was rejected.

Various things then happened and DH is now bringing a sex discrimination claim against the WI.

The WI instructed a big Tier 1 London law firm, one of the partners of which then called DH and explained that they would be relying on section 158, Equality Act and invited him to withdraw his claim.

After that they sent a letter to DH stating that in addition to the section 158 defence it was also the case that the WI "does not purport to establish single sex membership within the meaning of the EqA"

They went on to say:

"As such, it is free to define “women who have reached the Age of Majority” within its Membership Rules as it pleases, as long as its definition is not discriminatory. As we explain below, the definition “women who live as women, including transgender women” is not discriminatory."

They also said that their membership policy does not discriminate on the grounds of sex or render reassignment and that:

"The Membership Policy does not exclude anyone on these grounds. It allows for the admission of “biological” men as members, as long as they are living as women. It also allows for the admission of people who are not trans, as long as they are living as women."
.

So that is where we are as of today. The next step in the process will be in early August so there probably won't be any substantive update to the thread until then.

But, as I said earlier, even though I don't always reply to every post I do read every single comment (often more than once) and having people take an interest really does make a difference. Thank you.
.

PS In their letter, they put quotation marks around the word biological - "biological" (see above). Both DH and I were rather confused by this and thought that they were perhaps quoting him in the Particulars of Claim, but DH hadn't used that term.

On looking at the letter in more detail, the answer was found in one of the footnotes. They said:

2 Where references are made to “biological” sex in in this letter, quotation marks are used to make it clear that we refer to the term as used by the Supreme Court in FWS, to mean sex as recorded at birth. This is not a term that NFWI would otherwise use itself, because sex (including the sex of trans and intersex people) is not binary in this way.

[emphasis added]

Well, it's going to be interesting to hear that point argued in court. DH did make a point in the Particulars of Claim to keep referring to "men with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment", perhaps this annoyed them a bit?

An update to the WI Announcement thread. My DH just got a reply to his application to join them. | Mumsnet

This is not a thread about a thread, but recently there was a thread about the Womens Institute announcement that they would not be implementing the S...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5333650-an-update-to-the-wi-announcement-thread-my-dh-just-got-a-reply-to-his-application-to-join-them

OP posts:
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24
SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 03/12/2025 11:44

Another2Cats · 06/11/2025 07:28

I'm fine, thank you. The case is progressing as slowly as legal cases do. DH has filed and served his Directions Questionnaire and also his Reply to Defence.

However, there are a number of things going on in the background that I am not at liberty to talk about.

As and when these things are resolved I will (or may be) in a position to update this thread more freely.

We hope you are to blame for todays decision :)

Thirdtimeunlucky2025 · 03/12/2025 11:46

Harassedevictee · 03/12/2025 10:42

@Another2Cats a big thank you to you and your DH. You have added to the pressure on the WI, and others, to change their policy to comply with the law.
👏👏💐💐

This.

I was so close to leaving. Most of my WI have no idea about this! Looking forward to their hearing about it at our next meeting if they’ve clocked what’s going on!

Throckmorton · 03/12/2025 11:47

Wow - bloody good work @Another2Cats and Mr2Cats!!!!

CautiousLurker2 · 03/12/2025 11:59

Bloody great news. Finally.

wimonnzy · 03/12/2025 12:00

Well done OP and OP husband. I've been following in the background. The dominoes are falling rapidly now, one by one. Great day for GG and WI isn't it, and for all women.

While I'm here and hope I'm not taking away from this victory, but any further update on the Hampstead Ponds?

PoppySeedBagelRedux · 03/12/2025 12:03

Well done 2Cats and Mr2Cats, and thank you. I will now be able to join the local WI.

Veilsofmorning · 03/12/2025 12:10

Thank you, 2Cats and Mr2Cats

bibbadee · 03/12/2025 12:12

Currently being discussed in BBC radio2 Jeremy Vine show.

CatProcrastinator1 · 03/12/2025 12:13

Thank you so much 2Cats and Mr2Cats. All these victories are so important and this one should gain lots of publicity.

Littlefish · 03/12/2025 12:22

Magnificent work! Thank you both for your tenacity and to everyone on this thread who contributed their thoughts, opinions, knowledge and research.

RedToothBrush · 03/12/2025 12:23

Good work! Thanks!

NoBinturongsHereMate · 03/12/2025 12:30

wimonnzy · 03/12/2025 12:00

Well done OP and OP husband. I've been following in the background. The dominoes are falling rapidly now, one by one. Great day for GG and WI isn't it, and for all women.

While I'm here and hope I'm not taking away from this victory, but any further update on the Hampstead Ponds?

I believe we established previously that the Ponds share the same legal team as the WI and Girl Guides, so ....

RareGoalsVerge · 03/12/2025 12:31

Commiserations to your DH @Another2Cats as I presume today's news means that he will not be successful in gaining admittance to the WI. I do hope that he finds another way to pursue his hobby with like-minded individuals in a mixed-sex environment.

Silverbirchleaf · 03/12/2025 12:37

Dammit. We may never know what ‘living as a woman’ actually means now, because I’d like to know if I’m doing it wrong. I have just done ironing, so I am conforming to the 1950s gender stereotype a little… .

KnottyAuty · 03/12/2025 12:43

Whaaaat?! Can it be true? How much did this stick in the Guardian’s craw to publish this?!?

DH -v- The WI, Thread 2
RareGoalsVerge · 03/12/2025 12:47

Hmm. Just read the actual press update and actually @Another2Cats 's DH might be OK :

For example, in April 2026, we will be launching a national network of local WI Sisterhood groups, which will offer monthly opportunities for all people, including transgender women, to come together to socialise, learn from each other, and share their experiences

  • if a "sisterhood" group like this started to offer the hobby that OP's DH wants to do as one of their activities, then it would be open to all people and he would be fine to go along. - Bonus

(but that said, it makes me a little less interested in joining if they are going to be bending over backwards to include men)

Arran2024 · 03/12/2025 12:53

Who the heck do these trustees think they are, making these heavily loaded statements like "trans women are women"? They know full well that many, many people disagree. They are taking the Stonewall position with no regard to what anyone else believes. They are behaving appallingly

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 03/12/2025 12:55

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/12/2025 10:46

It's says all people, but it then says to "share their experiences of living as women"...

I'd be happy to do that. It could be an interesting discussion, until they kick me out for not womaning convincingly, at which point I can quote the Equality Act 2010.

madrush · 03/12/2025 12:57

Another message of thanks to you 2cats and Mr2cats - for the part you played in protecting women and girls groups for women and girls. 💐

IamEarthymama · 03/12/2025 13:16

Huge thanks to @Another2Cats and MrAnother2cats! 🌺
You have certainly added to the pressure on WI.

Will MrMrAnother2cats join the Sisterhood? 😉☺️

GallantKumquat · 03/12/2025 13:41

Silverbirchleaf · 03/12/2025 12:37

Dammit. We may never know what ‘living as a woman’ actually means now, because I’d like to know if I’m doing it wrong. I have just done ironing, so I am conforming to the 1950s gender stereotype a little… .

Well, the real test for whether they're transphobic is whether they exclude women based on whether or not they're trans identified, i.e. NOT living as a woman.

LittleBitofBread · 03/12/2025 13:43

Thank you, OP, and OP's husband!

Honestly, the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the WI is most unbecoming.
I have to wonder who they're afraid of.

ANewCreation · 03/12/2025 13:49

Thank you so much for the time, effort (and I can only imagine the stress) you have put into pursuing this. Massive well done to you both.

MyrtleLion · 03/12/2025 13:55

So pleased! Let us know @Another2Cats when they offer to settle and pay your DH's costs!!!

ProfessorBettyBooper · 03/12/2025 14:19

RareGoalsVerge · 03/12/2025 12:31

Commiserations to your DH @Another2Cats as I presume today's news means that he will not be successful in gaining admittance to the WI. I do hope that he finds another way to pursue his hobby with like-minded individuals in a mixed-sex environment.

Well according to Colin Wynter KC, now might be perfect time to crack on...

https://x.com/QcWynter/status/1996197887630545280?s=20

Colin Wynter KC (@QcWynter) on X

Sue now and win some pretty easy money. Club together to make it economically worthwhile (eg 100+ women awarded £5K each) & then go see a lawyer. @WomensInstitute has practically hung up a sign saying "Please sue us between now and April". Who want...

https://x.com/QcWynter/status/1996197887630545280?s=20