NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #33

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32

It is not up to children to safeguard themselves. Even setting aside the unequal power at play in that situation, or the possibility of every girl actually having a free choice, a school must first and foremost safeguard children - which means not offering the choice and keeping boys out of girls changing rooms.

I think the answer is no to that i would like to go to bed lol

You can trust us Nauti, but NHS Fife could release half a dozen statements between now and breakfast!

Bigly fibbing IMHO…..

@nauticant cohld we ask MN to pause threads overnight? It is an unusual situation.

Can one pause a thread?

The poor man and his family. Unfortunately, this is a common scenario, particularly in hospitals. When you feel ill you go to the toilet. If your health is compromised, the process of elimination can put your life at risk eg. 11% of cardiac arrests happen on the loo.

I saved a young woman’s life because I saw her on the floor of her toilet cubicle when we entered the ladies of a nightclub (she’d choked on her own vomit). We got her out, into the recovery position and scooped the vomit out of her mouth and whacked her on the back until she started choking and breathing again and went from blue to pink. Single sex toilets are the only ones to have door gaps. We would not have seen her without the door gap.

It annoys me when people go on about unisex toilets having ‘locking’ doors. Under building regs they can’t. They should be able to be easily opened outwards from the outside (the hinge mechanism changing if the door is set to go inwards) precisely so you can retrieve someone. Unisex toilets also have to be private and resistant to sound. This design isn’t the safeguarding solution people think it is, in reality.

There should be as many single sex toilets with door gaps (with a single sex area in front) as possible in hospital settings. Door gaps decrease pathogens in the cubicle as ventilation is increased, the floors can be soaked and bleached and mopping is more efficient, occupants are safer as if they have a medical emergency they will be noticed, occupants can see if anyone is in the same set of cubicles so have warning. I am hoping, designers will take health and safety into mind with single sex wards and put safer designs of single sex toilets back in.

If there is any ambiguity, the cubicles become private.

@nauticant Nah dont start a new one until tomoz

@snickersbarchild is the missing patient which DU referenced when trying to cast aspersions on SP’s professional conduct. I enjoyed the comedy reply by @ifIwerenotanandroid which was very apt 🤣

Yep - the Aussie’s and night owls were out in force last night…

This makes sense to me too.

Another thought is that I suspect that if I was in any sort of space and said to any man of my acquaintance, "Could you go away, please? I'm having a really heavy period and I need privacy to deal with it," they'd say, "Yes, of course," and maybe, "Are you OK? Can I go and get anything for you?" Something similar would have happened if Sandie had made the request to one of her female colleagues. No decent person of either sex would dream of saying, "No, I'm entitled to be here and I'm staying right here," with the subtext of, "And that's more important than your comfort and dignity."

I'm WFH tomorrow, but I have a lot of work to get through so need to be disciplined 😭

@nauticant Can you start a new thread and then ask for this one to be locked?

Surely... surely we can't go a whole 1000 posts overnight?

@CapeGooseberry Absolutely agree with you. Apologies if my words were clumsy. I'd fight to the end of the earth if her school tried anything like this.

OMG - I’ve made it to the end. For now.

Although not how peaking was originally intended on here, I also think of change theory and people’s willingness to adopt new ideas. For people not familiar with the description it’s about where people are on a bell curve and who needs to be influenced at different points of a campaign. This is broadly how I see it, though we’re not home & dry yet.

1. Innovators: These are the first individuals to embrace new ideas. Or see what others can’t or won’t. See feminists like Germaine Greer and women not realising how much men hate them.

2. Early Adopters: These individuals are opinion leaders who influence others. They are often sought out for advice and recommendations. The FWR OGs who educated us all.

3. Early Majority: This group adopts new ideas after a bit of observation and deliberation. Those of us who went WTF after Man Friday, Maria M in Hyde Park and Ocado and the AHF posters. And realised that perhaps groups 1 & 2 might not be so mean after all.

The peak, Keira Bell, Maya, the Tavistock, Alison Bailey, JKR, Sharon D and so many more. Not to mention the SC ruling and the end of no debate.

4. Late Majority: This group is more skeptical and risk-averse. They adopt new ideas only after the majority of people have already done so. They are often influenced by social pressure. The current press articles are massively affecting people, who probably haven’t paid close attention before now.

5. Laggards: Allies and resisters. These individuals are the last to adopt new ideas and are often resistant to change/giving up their privileges. And are still having tantrums. Can/will never admit the Emperor is naked.

That’s not to say that I think this war is won. Resistance to the SC remains strong and is deeply embedded within organisations, especially within government and the public sector. Women’s rights are not secured, but Gender Identity as a serious and substantial movement is running out of road.

I suggested this - 24 hours ago - so on page 1 of this thread.
I've just watched Julia Long on Free Speech Nation - she is fabulous as always.

Shame that Nauticant can't set up an alert which posts this when someone accesses the thread overnight.

I'm very very behind, but I really hope God and Moses were detained at the same time. The conversation between them would have fascinating!

The best day was when we had two Jesus's and a Mary, all detained to the small two ward hospital! Trying to ensure they were all separated was a big job for the staff!

Hahahaha if you open the pdf, click into the image first and then, from the image within the pdf, zoom in you get the best quality, but it's still not great. I remembered the map when Elspeth Pitt was talking about how long it would take to get around the whole department, and how the areas and corridors are connected. So I compared the A&E floor plan against the less detailed main hospital map and narrowed it down to where I assume the CRs must be.

Most of all it just amuses me that DU had entered a floor plan of the department for the poster presentation event in April 2024, which took place online at the exact time he had gone off sick after hearing SP had begun the ET claim, and therefore that he would need to concoct some 'evidence' pdq. "X marks the spot" indeed!

I'm pretty sure he would have devised the induction game for the previous August 2023 induction, given that he submitted the game and feedback to the 2024 conference. (I know it was the 2024 conference because the poster is indexed with that year's posters but just hidden from the relevant page).

His familiarity with the layout is another indication that he already 'knew' the A&E from his psychiatry rotation visits, and was seeing it as his home territory before he started his own induction. I like to think of him studying his own treasure hunt map as he concocted his hopeless lies.

This comment requires the laugh emoji!
Go to bed, @nauticant , promise we'll all have an early night too...
Popcorn at the ready for tomorrow!

Any sign of a wee donkey?

Sorry @nauticant unnecessary post pulling us a little closer to page 40.

Sounds almost as tricky as keeping DU and SP separated on a rota!

I seem to recall that in the 80's you could not buy alcohol in a shop/ off licence in Scotland on a Sunday at all. It was just one step on from the bona fides travellers rule for on licence sales.

I can imagine IB brainstorming possible questions with her EDI network, maybe even doing some mock Q&A stuff to rehearse & prepare. I can also imagine her throwing out the "I don't know if I'm a woman" line, and the others applauding it wildly.

"It's so beautiful, Isla. Just so powerful and authentic! Naomi Scummingham won't know what to say, you've skewered the bigots with their own bioessentialist dogma!"

And then they all had a little cry, exchanged virtual hugs by Teams, and ended the call thinking they'd found the killer strategy.