NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #33

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32

Aye, not common as muck like wot we are.

Sorry I can’t easily find the answer. Who is Charlotte Miles?

Article from Hadley Freeman just published.
https://www.thetimes.com/article/2063c1d6-40f2-441e-93fd-dcfe310f1e6b?shareToken=0f12d98c71dc9e1969c917a63e486d1f

That’s the whole problem with the upper middle classes and their luxury opinions. They have money and power which buys them choices.

They know they will never have to share a prison cell or a rape crisis support group or an NHS ward with a man who identifies as female. And they don’t care about the ordinary women and children who don’t have an option, they are just collateral damage.

More developments on NHSF’s wanton abandon when it comes to spending tax payer cash.

https://x.com/georgia_edkins/status/1946673788478722158?s=46

“In an exclusive interview Scotland’s Auditor General said he could probe NHS Fife over its handling of the Peggie case. He will wait for a routine report from auditors to be returned and make his decision then - only in The MoS:”

Its baffled a lot of people how the excessive cost involved in defending the indefensible has been approved & what on earth those responsible for deciding to keep this farce going are reviewing to agree more money spent is the way to go. At some point, having NHSF staff be exposed to admitting how badly they’ve performed at their job has to be seen as the massive own goal it clearly is.

At some point, someone has to look at the financial responsibility for authorising a case that has imploded so badly for NHSF that they don’t even have a colour on their risk register for where they are with how bad the fall out on this reflects on them.

https://x.com/kathmurray1/status/1946282266549981594?s=46

Link to X post with visual representation of NHSF risk register.

Well the Times has well and truly been peeked.
Is that a recent thing or have they been for a while? Im not exactly a Times reader.

This is interesting, this hospital is not a vast hospital where staff are anonymous. x.com/gussiegrips/status/1946181949598425582?s=46

This is true. And it doesn't sound like she'll be anywhere near a NHS ward either.

While I wouldn't want to see someone actually harmed. I wouldn't mind seeing certain individuals ending up in a sss with some 6ft trans bloke, just so they get a wee taste of feeling uncomfortable sharing that space.

FingleGlen thank you, I appreciate the time you have taken to educate me.

It might be a typo for Charlotte Elves, who is SPs junior counsel. She was questioning witnesses at the tribunal on Friday.

it’s where the wonderful Janice Turner has her regular column, which has been enlightening to many people. Other good journalists too, there’s been a lot over the years.

I think they have mentioned "Lottie Miles" before. Can't remember who she is though.

OMG! JR's husband is the grandson of Bertrand Russell. One of Bertrand Russell's interests of study was Leibniz and his logical formalism as applied to law. Russell has commented that in theory you could formalize the legal code and then once the facts of the case are determined, mechanically produce a verdict - one of Leibniz' life long pursuits was describing such a system.

But one of the things you would have to do is prove your system was consistent, if it's not then any assertion of guilt could also be used to proved innocent, this follows from formal mathematical systems generally. All such systems depend on axioms applied under the rules of logic to produce theorems. If the axioms are not carefully chosen to avoid inconsistencies then you have a mathematical system in which anything can be proved. One of the greatest mathematical results of the 20th century were Gödel's incompleteness theorems which answered Russell's inquiry into a provably consistent mathematical system: that in fact (among other things) it's impossible to prove any sufficiently complex mathematical system is consistent. (Although it should be noted that a legal system uses such a restricted set of axioms, and logical inferences that it probably would be possible to prove the consistency of a carefully constructed formalized system.)

What's interesting is that Helen Joyce, as a train mathematician, refers to this when she talks about the trans issue - when you introduce a logical fallacy into your legal system, it becomes extremely pernicious, because it allows you essentially argue anything for or against, destroying the objectivity and impartiality of the system of code and even its overall coherence. Assertions that men can become women and that instances of the word 'man' and 'women' sometime refer to sex and sometime refer to 'gender' are examples of such endangering legal inconsistencies.

Big penny dropping 🫳

Hence it was so important to get the Supreme Court to define Woman?

There’s a Lottie Myles who is clinical services manager at NHS Fife . Is she on the witness list ?

Tbh I’ve never encountered a trans identifying male. That does not make this whole debacle less traumatising. I would have reacted in exactly the same way as Sandie in those circumstances. It’s so horrendous that she was bullied for that. I feel so much for her….

Charlotte "Lottie" Myles is the service manager who was involved in the 'risk assessment' around suspension. She was involved in the exchange of emails with Gillian Malone that NC suggested was about silencing Sandie and stopping Sandie organising with nurses who may share her views.

Bring a packed lunch to court so you can attend the lunchtime debrief! 😁

Confidentiality would have been a sensible defence for him to use but he didn’t use it. Instead he said he’d been too busy to take contemporaneous notes — he’s an A&E doc doncha know 😉 — but if he had been at all suspicious of patient care concerns at the time he had an obligation to report it which he didn’t.

My read of those patient care incidents are that when he was told my AG to up the game he drew on his memory of a couple of occasions where she hadn’t been as nice to him as he expected her to be. When those incidents occurred he was likely already annoyed that SP wouldn’t validate him in the f cr and in these other encounters did not bestow upon him what he feels to be his due. Ie she handled business as necessary then left him to it and did not smile at him in passing (I think not smiling at him was mentioned)

I don’t think she’s been called as a witness?

In the initial submissions her role and these emails had not been disclosed. Now they are included in the updated bundle it isn’t going to be in JRs interests to call her.

I don’t think NC can call her either since she is on NHS Fife side? Anyone know?

This is marvelous.

The Pillars Of Sanity
For the combatants in the gender wars, it’s been quite a spring and summer here in the TERF Island theatre of battle.

In February, polling company YouGov revealed the vast extent to which public opinion has shifted around the issue (significantly though not entirely in the wake of the Cass Review last April), which we reported on via a snazzy Stalingrad metaphor. But just as with Stalingrad, it was only the precursor to the recapture of territory on an epic scale.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-pillars-of-sanity/

Its suggested upthread that NC can call other witnesses since all the documentation wasn't disclosed before the case began.
Which might be why the 'phone examiner' is being called too.

Edit sorry can't remember his name.

I am off to bed. I feel so pleased that Sandie in latest pictures actually looks happy and relaxed. She knows she is supported. Sleep well Sandie and all that supported her. Xx

Fife's twice amended Statement may be more importnat in terms of giving Russell bargaining leverage if she wants it, on the question of conflict of interest (between Uptonogood & NotVeryCompetent).

Another article from The Times.

From Gillian Bowditch:
With the costs topping almost £260,000, a groundswell of public opinion behind Peggie, and serious concerns about the lack of transparency in the decision-making process at NHS Fife, the obvious thing for the board to do would have been to cut its losses and settle over the summer. Instead, they have bought bigger shovels and are rivalling Orpheus to see how far they can get with them.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/d9e73eb9-8e35-4999-8581-0a4b588a3316?shareToken=6b668df1a151d61a6571e0c307004a77

So much easier to approve of a wantonly digging in heels approach when it’s based on using someone else’s money.