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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #33

1000 replies

nauticant · 19/07/2025 21:05

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32

OP posts:
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47
Justabaker · 20/07/2025 08:46

cigarsmokingwoman · 20/07/2025 08:15

can someone confirm yes or no, if KS and VV will be witnesses? Those are the two I'd like to see.

As the witness list stands:

No to VV. Has submitted a written witness statement as an 'expert'. (On what, the mind boggles). Neither party had any questions, so not called.

Yes as to KS - at least as of close of play Friday. Who knows what will happen tomorrow morning. I doubt there will be a timely start.

peakedtraybake · 20/07/2025 08:49

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

peakedtraybake · 20/07/2025 08:51

Sorry, posted an illegal link by accident. I was just saying that there are lots of parallels with this case:
sex-matters.org/case-briefings/faye-russell-caldicott-v-nhs-england/

RedToothBrush · 20/07/2025 08:52

ThatCyanCat · 20/07/2025 08:37

It's not at all uncommon for barristers to be upper class and privileged. It's probably most of them.

It does make me wonder, again, why Fife thinks sonething is corrupt in NC being chair of Sex Matters. That's quite the opposite of a conflict of interest. It's just proof that she's committed to and sincere about what she's advocating.

Maybe in my TV series starring Mirren and Maxwell Martin, there'll be a plot twist where it turns out JR was a double agent working undercover for Sex Matters and women's rights, as was everyone on the Fife press team. It's starting to look like the only explanation that makes sense!

Because we are talking about people who don't know their male from their female, their arse from their elbow, their up from their down, their policy from their non policy, their fair disciplinary process from their kangaroo court or their confidentially from their mass email.

They just know this: They are right.

And knowing they are right is all that matters. Because it's an emotional response. An arrogant statused response. A response that can only come from top down power and their place in it.

They don't care for listening to others; there is no need for a consultation process with other staff. They don't value the position of others in a lower status; there is no need for a risk assessment. They look after their own and everyone else has to suck it up.

Understand the power dynamics and everything that has happened DOES make sense. That's what makes it scary really.

And for people like this to suddenly wake up and admit they are wrong?

Well in some cases they never do, and they walk around with a chip on their shoulder for the rest of their lives as if they've suffered some massive injustice because they've been held to account.

Others will eventually process it, but it's a traumatic process of learning your place in the world isn't as secure and as infallible as you thought. The notion that yes you were very very very wrong is a bitter pill to swallow.

And if often all depends on how quickly these people can recover and regroup and start doing the same thing all over again in a slightly different guise. (When you get regime change in an authoritarian country, you replace a certain percentage of those who were in power before but actually you end up retaining a very large percentage who were part of the initial problem too). This may or may not mean they push the same ideologies as there may be a degree of pragmatism to them, but certainly the same power and social structures largely remain intact.

It will be very interesting to see how it pans out.

I have to say I sincerely hope that Fife and JR continue hand in hand and Kate Searle gets her day in court because the fall out will be even more complete and I don't really want to see a damage limited exercise because I want the full glorious collapse with multiple investigations and board resignations at this point. If only for the drama and to put a rocket up the arse of every other trust in England, Scotland, Wales and NI.

rebmacesrevda · 20/07/2025 08:52

@peakedtraybake
The drama with the info commissioner is the best bit for me. It's just so absurd and unprofessional of them. He, quite rightly, ordered them to release data they were legally required to release and had been avoiding releasing. They threw a strop and called him "emotional", in a message which then got leaked via their own sheer incompetence. They then release a public statement in which they lie about the whole thing. What the hell is wrong with them? It's hilarious.

Justabaker · 20/07/2025 08:52

ThatCyanCat · 20/07/2025 08:37

It's not at all uncommon for barristers to be upper class and privileged. It's probably most of them.

It does make me wonder, again, why Fife thinks sonething is corrupt in NC being chair of Sex Matters. That's quite the opposite of a conflict of interest. It's just proof that she's committed to and sincere about what she's advocating.

Maybe in my TV series starring Mirren and Maxwell Martin, there'll be a plot twist where it turns out JR was a double agent working undercover for Sex Matters and women's rights, as was everyone on the Fife press team. It's starting to look like the only explanation that makes sense!

I'm going to speak up for NC.

Helen Mirren is about 4 decades too old to play NC. I offer Emily Blunt.

ThatCyanCat · 20/07/2025 08:54

Justabaker · 20/07/2025 08:52

I'm going to speak up for NC.

Helen Mirren is about 4 decades too old to play NC. I offer Emily Blunt.

Yes, I guess she is too old. She's just so fucking fab and so is NC, and she does look younger.

Styled right, Blunt would be good.

Needspaceforlego · 20/07/2025 08:56

MagicSexEssence · 20/07/2025 05:22

I don't see how NC working for SM could be considered a conflict of interest. NC is clearly not an impartial party in this case. If it transpired that the judge or panel members were on the board of SM then, yes, that would be a conflict. Wonder if they've ever done any stonewall training?

Its not NC who's potentially got a conflict of interest its JR. She's the one with two clients.

In my humble opinion who's no expert in this. The most logical argument Fife could come out with is, they were following ScotGov/ Stonewall guidance at the time. There was a conflict between the Workplace regs and the Equality Act.

But a huge part of their issue is they screwed up didn't follow a process, treated him with kid gloves (were they scared of him?) and treated her with pure contempt.

Theo/Beth potentially also has a claim against Fife they let him use the Laydes, didn't resolve the issue even although it was mentioned in a meeting months before Sandie questioned him directly on his right to be there.
And caused him the embrassement of being called out by a a teeny wee woman, who he was scared off 😱

RedToothBrush · 20/07/2025 08:57

rebmacesrevda · 20/07/2025 08:52

@peakedtraybake
The drama with the info commissioner is the best bit for me. It's just so absurd and unprofessional of them. He, quite rightly, ordered them to release data they were legally required to release and had been avoiding releasing. They threw a strop and called him "emotional", in a message which then got leaked via their own sheer incompetence. They then release a public statement in which they lie about the whole thing. What the hell is wrong with them? It's hilarious.

Arrogance.

That's what is wrong with them.

NebulousDog · 20/07/2025 08:58

cigarsmokingwoman · 20/07/2025 08:15

can someone confirm yes or no, if KS and VV will be witnesses? Those are the two I'd like to see.

VV has submitted a written statement (and possibly a supplementary), which the advocates (see, I’ve read the thread) will deal with in submissions if necessary.

Presumably it joins a bundle (so maybe in-person attendees can see it?).

Somebody on X suggested that KS was pencilled in for Tuesday (but that was before the Fife squirrels hit the Red Bull).

Yes, I did read the Times articles on my phone (but thank you for pointing it out). I was simply wondering how they might appear in hard print; they weren’t short.

Peregrina · 20/07/2025 09:00

Theo/Beth potentially also has a claim against Fife they let him use the Laydes, didn't resolve the issue even although it was mentioned in a meeting months before Sandie questioned him directly on his right to be there.
And caused him the embrassement of being called out by a a teeny wee woman, who he was scared off

Would that claim work? Fife didn't tell him that he must use the Laydies - he announced that he would and they didn't stop him. What would have happened if he had used the Mens changing room? At a guess, absolutely nothing.

Taytoface · 20/07/2025 09:00

Wow, isn't is fascinating to see the media actually do their jobs? I have been so used to pretty half arsed stories with no depth and zero commentary. Now the Times really has the bit between its teeth. For the first time I am learning something from the pieces being written. I didn't know who JR was (love the poster who gave the Intel on Bertrand Russell, learned even more), I know more about how public bodies are held accountable for finances and FoI. I had also mistakenly though the internal disciplinary was solely about the bogus clinical safety concerns, not the incident in the changing room.

After all the batshittery, why is it this case that has triggered proper journalism? I reckon the mis of it being the NHS, the class elements and the staggering incompetency of NHS Fife have finally triggered the journalistic instinct.

Butchyrestingface · 20/07/2025 09:01

Even if (hopefully when!) the tribunal rules against NHS Fife and Upton, surely this issue will continue to follow BU wherever they go? BU stated at the hearing in February that he is 'biologically female' and does not accept that there is a fixed or determined definition of biological sex.

Therefore even with the Supreme Court ruling that the Equality Act refers to 'biological' sex and not gender, this is surely no impediment to the likes of BU who insists he is biologically female? Even with a ruling that only biological females can enter the women's changing rooms or treat patients who have requested a female clinician for intimate care issues, BU will merrily continue to insert himself in these situations. And the NHS will facilitate him all the way because they prioritise male delusions above patients comfort and safety.

Also saw this quote at:

care.org.uk/news/2025/02/landmark-case-under-way-over-trans-access-to-womens-changing-rooms

Ms Peggie herself is a survivor of childhood sexual assault from a doctor, and has said that that incident has informed her wish to have access to single-sex spaces in the workplace.

I haven't seen this reported anywhere else. But it would make NHS Fife's treatment of her all the more egregiously terrible.

Arran2024 · 20/07/2025 09:02

I notice that the article refers to Upton as "they". One of the comments on the article accuses the Times of bending to Stonewall in using "they" and not "he", but as another commentator points out, this is progress as up til now he would have been called "she"!

RedToothBrush · 20/07/2025 09:02

All these organisations that have come out saying the SC is wrong and they are going to ignore the ruling would do well to notice what is happening in this court case because if they decide to ignore the law, adopt non policy policies and engage in targeting GC staff to defend their position then this might not be the last farce to face court.

Peregrina · 20/07/2025 09:02

why is it this case that has triggered proper journalism?

It hasn't yet as far as the Guardian is concerned.

Waitwhat23 · 20/07/2025 09:02

It was also very stupid of them to poke the bear in the form of the Information Commissioner. He's really pissed off now!

NHS Fife seem utterly determined to screw themselves over.

TwiceForLunch · 20/07/2025 09:03

TBH though I would not be surprised that the Tribunal decides to close public access after Friday. They might take the view that the very real and serious threats from unhinged members of the public make it prudent to do so.

FingleGlen · 20/07/2025 09:04

https://x.com/andrewlearmonth/status/1946836394489368889?t=wrS1jyTv_Ye4UcuI2YNFzQ&s=19

Interesting added detail re the Fife investigation and DU making notes on other staff too....

Arran2024 · 20/07/2025 09:05

Needspaceforlego · 20/07/2025 00:28

Well the Times has well and truly been peeked.
Is that a recent thing or have they been for a while? Im not exactly a Times reader.

The Times has been pretty much on side for a while - Janice Turner writes for them. The Sunday Times was traditionally less so but now they have gender critical journalists too and the tide has turned.

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 20/07/2025 09:05

GallantKumquat · 20/07/2025 00:47

OMG! JR's husband is the grandson of Bertrand Russell. One of Bertrand Russell's interests of study was Leibniz and his logical formalism as applied to law. Russell has commented that in theory you could formalize the legal code and then once the facts of the case are determined, mechanically produce a verdict - one of Leibniz' life long pursuits was describing such a system.

But one of the things you would have to do is prove your system was consistent, if it's not then any assertion of guilt could also be used to proved innocent, this follows from formal mathematical systems generally. All such systems depend on axioms applied under the rules of logic to produce theorems. If the axioms are not carefully chosen to avoid inconsistencies then you have a mathematical system in which anything can be proved. One of the greatest mathematical results of the 20th century were Gödel's incompleteness theorems which answered Russell's inquiry into a provably consistent mathematical system: that in fact (among other things) it's impossible to prove any sufficiently complex mathematical system is consistent. (Although it should be noted that a legal system uses such a restricted set of axioms, and logical inferences that it probably would be possible to prove the consistency of a carefully constructed formalized system.)

What's interesting is that Helen Joyce, as a train mathematician, refers to this when she talks about the trans issue - when you introduce a logical fallacy into your legal system, it becomes extremely pernicious, because it allows you essentially argue anything for or against, destroying the objectivity and impartiality of the system of code and even its overall coherence. Assertions that men can become women and that instances of the word 'man' and 'women' sometime refer to sex and sometime refer to 'gender' are examples of such endangering legal inconsistencies.

Really interesting - thanks! And yes the logical fallacies and their consequences are what fascinate me. I've always thought someone more clever than me might be able to 'square the circle' but it appears not. (One example - your gender is different from your sex, but your sex is your gender.... another: women are people of either sex unless you're transitioning to be a woman in which case they're female.... I could list them forever).

Is Leibniz anything to do with Choco Leibniz? Do we have a fight on our hands between Tunnocks and Leibniz?

... I was joking, but actually.... YES?!
"The brand name Leibniz comes from the philosopher and mathematician Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz (1646–1716)"

Justabaker · 20/07/2025 09:06

Taytoface · 20/07/2025 09:00

Wow, isn't is fascinating to see the media actually do their jobs? I have been so used to pretty half arsed stories with no depth and zero commentary. Now the Times really has the bit between its teeth. For the first time I am learning something from the pieces being written. I didn't know who JR was (love the poster who gave the Intel on Bertrand Russell, learned even more), I know more about how public bodies are held accountable for finances and FoI. I had also mistakenly though the internal disciplinary was solely about the bogus clinical safety concerns, not the incident in the changing room.

After all the batshittery, why is it this case that has triggered proper journalism? I reckon the mis of it being the NHS, the class elements and the staggering incompetency of NHS Fife have finally triggered the journalistic instinct.

Sun Sunset GIF

The damn broke in February when one of the Scottish papers said 'we will not use female pronouns for Dr U'. It was a trickle, then a flood.
This is how preference cascades is created.
A preference cascade is a social phenomenon where people rapidly shift from privately held beliefs or opinions to publicly expressing them, often triggered by a critical mass of individuals openly revealing their true preferences. This happens when individuals realize that their previously suppressed views are more widely shared than they thought, leading to a sudden and widespread change in public behavior or opinion. It’s often seen in political or cultural shifts, like the fall of authoritarian regimes or sudden changes in social norms.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/07/2025 09:07

Butchyrestingface · 20/07/2025 09:01

Even if (hopefully when!) the tribunal rules against NHS Fife and Upton, surely this issue will continue to follow BU wherever they go? BU stated at the hearing in February that he is 'biologically female' and does not accept that there is a fixed or determined definition of biological sex.

Therefore even with the Supreme Court ruling that the Equality Act refers to 'biological' sex and not gender, this is surely no impediment to the likes of BU who insists he is biologically female? Even with a ruling that only biological females can enter the women's changing rooms or treat patients who have requested a female clinician for intimate care issues, BU will merrily continue to insert himself in these situations. And the NHS will facilitate him all the way because they prioritise male delusions above patients comfort and safety.

Also saw this quote at:

care.org.uk/news/2025/02/landmark-case-under-way-over-trans-access-to-womens-changing-rooms

Ms Peggie herself is a survivor of childhood sexual assault from a doctor, and has said that that incident has informed her wish to have access to single-sex spaces in the workplace.

I haven't seen this reported anywhere else. But it would make NHS Fife's treatment of her all the more egregiously terrible.

It was mentioned in testimony.

Largesso · 20/07/2025 09:07

Needspaceforlego · 20/07/2025 01:43

Its suggested upthread that NC can call other witnesses since all the documentation wasn't disclosed before the case began.
Which might be why the 'phone examiner' is being called too.

Edit sorry can't remember his name.

Edited

That was also inexpert moi - pure speculation on my part but seems logical but I don’t think she can call witnesses that should have been called by the other side? She hasn’t called Jamie Doyle for example and made something Fontane fact he hasn’t been called by JR.

Waitwhat23 · 20/07/2025 09:09

Justabaker · 20/07/2025 09:06

The damn broke in February when one of the Scottish papers said 'we will not use female pronouns for Dr U'. It was a trickle, then a flood.
This is how preference cascades is created.
A preference cascade is a social phenomenon where people rapidly shift from privately held beliefs or opinions to publicly expressing them, often triggered by a critical mass of individuals openly revealing their true preferences. This happens when individuals realize that their previously suppressed views are more widely shared than they thought, leading to a sudden and widespread change in public behavior or opinion. It’s often seen in political or cultural shifts, like the fall of authoritarian regimes or sudden changes in social norms.

Was that the Scottish Daily Express? They and (I think) the Sunday Post have been excellent in doing actual investigative journalism around this subject.

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