Page 14 | NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #33

TwiceForLunch · 20/07/2025 12:14

DustyWindowsills · 20/07/2025 12:08

I'm getting tents too! 😮 But yes, I have just bought a tent.

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I'm getting watches. I said on another thread I was thinking about treating myself to a classic watch for a big birthday.

Now... so many watches.

Seriestwo · 20/07/2025 12:15

This caught my attention. Jane Russell is married to a Lib Dem Lord x.com/gussiegrips/status/1946848435451445315?s=46

Datun · 20/07/2025 12:18

Chrysanthemum5 · 20/07/2025 12:12

Ive said this before in these threads - I work in a university and trans members of staff are openly saying they will never use the gender neutral toilets as that would out them as trans. So far the university is trying its best to ignore the issue

Yeah, when the result of this case is determined, that might change...

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 20/07/2025 12:18

TwiceForLunch · 20/07/2025 12:12

That's how it worked for me.

And Laurel Hubbard.

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There are lots of surprisingly swift routes to the top of the mountain for some it's sports, for some it's an encounter in what should be a sss, for some it's being called a bigot because they try to draw a line anywhere shy of total capitulation, for some it's award given to a man for best womaning, some people use a mixture of all the different paths but they all lead to top and once you are there you start to notice just how many paths there are.

Chersfrozenface · 20/07/2025 12:18

I'm going to be that person and add a non-important post to the thread.

When I want a name change, it will be to JaneRussellsGetawayHorse. If I'm not beaten to it.

MyAmpleSheep · 20/07/2025 12:20

Largesso · 20/07/2025 12:11

Reading the Times piece and I’m struck by this paragraph.

An anonymous lawyer is quoted as saying ‘It would be extraordinary for an employer to seek to relitigate an issue on which its own internal process has cleared the employee’

But the ET is not trying to the claims of DU per se but that the claims and how they were dealt with, amount to harassment etc.

So whilst the lack of evidence supporting DU’s claims undermines their case - because finding that out should have happened as the first port of call rather than suspension - it doesn’t necessarily lead to a conflict of interests as both parties are equally denying that it amounted to harassment etc.

It is in both their interests equally for that to remain both their lines of defence.

I think it’s more nuanced.

Their defence has to demonstrate the actions were, if not reasonable, not harassment.

For DU this means that the claims had not been exaggerated or that he had not pushed others by his behaviour into making quick decisions that served only his interests.

For NHS Fife that means proving that they followed due process in response to his claims.

So their interests do still seem
aligned even with the Disciplinary Panel’s findings. They are both equally invested in presenting the argument that they did not discriminate or harass.

In the weeds of it, NHS Fife clearly discriminated and helped DU harass. It might be that the panel might find that DU didn’t discriminate but did harass - but I don’t know if it is possible to make distinct findings for joint respondents?

Am I mistaken in believing one of the claims was that Fife harassed SP by allowing DU to use the female changing room at all? And that his presence there was harassment?

That is irrespective of the interaction between them. If that’s true then it was illegitimate of them to have even agreed to receive his complaint, let alone investigated it. In which case an investigation could never have been reasonable.

I don’t see how severing their defences would help either.

pontefractals · 20/07/2025 12:20

Chersfrozenface · 20/07/2025 12:18

I'm going to be that person and add a non-important post to the thread.

When I want a name change, it will be to JaneRussellsGetawayHorse. If I'm not beaten to it.

Can you do it now, ready for the next thread? You can't use two different names on one thread but I think you can bagsy one in advance?

SternlyMatthews · 20/07/2025 12:21

myplace · 20/07/2025 11:54

Wait, have I missed something this morning? Has information come to light about the content of the disciplinary? That Reddit thread suggests they know there’s a discrepancy between what was said at tribunal and what was said at disciplinary?!

Honestly, I go to church and come back and everyone’s 5 rounds ahead again!

Andrew Learmouth in the Herald, went through The Bundle to give only account so far of the disciplinary. All well worth reading https://archive.ph/ouEIm

mrshoho · 20/07/2025 12:21

Ooh interesting. I'm was getting Remitly ads re sending money to family overseas. I had sent a message to family in the US thanking them for a money gift. It's now just changed to Amazon men's gifts!

Datun · 20/07/2025 12:22

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 20/07/2025 12:18

There are lots of surprisingly swift routes to the top of the mountain for some it's sports, for some it's an encounter in what should be a sss, for some it's being called a bigot because they try to draw a line anywhere shy of total capitulation, for some it's award given to a man for best womaning, some people use a mixture of all the different paths but they all lead to top and once you are there you start to notice just how many paths there are.

Edited

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Yes, these days, the issues are much more understood. And of course, there are far more examples.

It's often a much quicker journey. Cable cars abound these days!

viques · 20/07/2025 12:24

Datun · 20/07/2025 11:22

So when Upton stood there absolutely outraged and quivering in fear and trepidation, sobbing that I've never been spoken to like this in all my life, he actually meant since the last time, where I took notes?

Edited

Funny isn’t it, you would have thought that a clever chap like him would have learned his lesson and kept meticulous contemporaneous notes, like for example if he thought a colleagues actions were endangering patients instead of relying on unreliable memories some months afterwards. Luckily it turns out the colleagues reported actions never actually took place, so no notes could have been made and the whole incident was just something the clever doctor had thought up to provide evidence to bolster up their hurt feelings at being correctly sexed by an older, more experienced, well regarded woman who was failing to offer appropriate worship.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/07/2025 12:25

SionnachRuadh · 20/07/2025 11:58

I've seen this thing before, where a transperson joins an organisation and suddenly everyone is walking on eggshells. It's very curious.

Specifically I mean a TW - not saying this never happens with FtMs, but I've never seen it.

Everybody becomes very nervous, as if saying the wrong thing, or even looking like you might be thinking the wrong thing, might cause some meltdown where you find yourself in the firing line. It doesn't do anything for the working environment.

There was a thing in American media a few years ago, at the Vox website, where Ezra Klein ended up firing his co-founder and lifelong friend Matt Yglesias, because Yglesias - a very boring middle-of-the-road liberal - had politely suggested that the Democrats had become too extreme on genderwoo and if they wanted to win elections they should consider moderating their position. The TW on staff threw an enormous tantrum, demanded that Yglesias should be fired and denounced for his hatey hate, and Klein meekly complied.

I was thinking of this recently when Klein did a podcast interview with trans Congressperson Sarah McBride. The content wasn't that interesting, but I was fascinated by the tone. It was a bit like Pinky interviewing The Brain. I kept thinking - Klein is not speaking with McBride as a peer having a conversation, Klein is scared of transwomen and sees McBride as someone to be tiptoed around, buttered up and never challenged.

If that's the case for someone as privileged as Ezra Klein, I bet it applies to some NHS bureaucrat in Fife.

Agreed.
The public have been "trained" in all this for years. I've never forgotten this thread from 2019 where a woman civil servant was horrified to discover that women civil servants were being compelled to react "acceptingly" on finding a man in the women's toilets. It's an example of how coercive control of others, especially women and girls, is a core component of trans ideology.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3520371-civil-service-trans-policy-what-can-i-do

InvisibleDragon · 20/07/2025 12:25

Regarding "peak" I think it's trying to capture the moment when the cognitive dissonance becomes too much to contain any more.

Like Sokal writes about paradigm shifts on science, people don't usually change their ideas on something gradually - it's more a growing body of evidence that suddenly makes a previously held position untenable.

So you are confident in your acceptance that "trans women are women" and that it is important to "be kind" - and there is quite a lot of space within that belief system to accommodate small, messy inconsistencies - because the world is complex, right?

And then there is something that happens (maybe Isla Bryson, maybe "biological sex is a nebulous dog whistle") that just doesn't fit. And you say "That's nonsense" and your whole worldview shifts, the scales fall from your eyes and you look back and reappraise everything else that didn't quite fit and see it totally differently.

Going totally off track here, but there's a passage in "All who go do not return" by Shulem Deen about the moment when he realizes he's totally lost his religious faith. He describes a similar experience of going back over all the tenets of his belief in his mind and realizing it doesn't work for him anymore.

There's a reference to that on this article and the whole story is heartbreaking:
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/jun/10/shulem-deen-when-i-lost-god-i-lost-my-children-too?CMP=ShareAndroidAppOther

I think the experience of "peaking" about "be kind" can be more similar to that - because you realize suddenly that you profoundly disagree with many friends/colleagues/family members and it's scary.

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 20/07/2025 12:26

Datun · 20/07/2025 12:22

Yes, these days, the issues are much more understood. And of course, there are far more examples.

It's often a much quicker journey. Cable cars abound these days!

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I was an early adopter of the Star Trek transporter, one second I was ambling about on a suburban street them suddenly I'm at the summit of a very biggly mountain. I was not really given the matter any thought to full TERF in the blink of an eye.

Boiledbeetle · 20/07/2025 12:27

Waitwhat23 · 20/07/2025 09:49

I'm thinking of poor Nauticant, who's probably sitting at her breakfast table, eating her weetabix disconsolently, thinking 'I thought I'd get the weekend off but those fuckers are still going'.

Sorry Nauticant!

Every time I come for a sit down there's loads more comments and my heart goes out to @nauticant

Not enough to not waste a post on drivel mind!!

MarieDeGournay · 20/07/2025 12:27

So is it true that JR is a descendant of the Russell who was PM during the Great Hunger?
Like Laura Trevelyan is a descendant of Charles Trevelyan?
The families did OK for themselves, didn't they?

That said, and even though JR's piece on yoga and riding Stormzy [her horse] reads like self parody, she has a job to do at the tribunal, and she's obliged to do her best for the people she is representing.

So while I admit my eyebrows are raised quite a bit above resting level.... who or what she is, and what her ancestors were responsible for, is irrelevant to the tribunal, and the advocates on both sides are doing what they are employed to do, JR as much as NC. Respect.

Re peaking: I always thought it was like the phrase 'We may have reached peak oil' meaning the point where oil no longer has the crucial place it used to have in the world economy.
I've seen it used humorously about things like the fad for designer stubble: 'Have we reached peak stubble?' etc.

Dumbo12 · 20/07/2025 12:28

I am concerned that Dr Upton is currently on rotation in psychiatry. While it is common to have staff who have their own experience of mental ill health, it is rare to allow someone with an active delusion, who remains untreated, to practice.
Having been involved with the detention of people who believed that they were God, a famous actor etc, I have also been horrified when a person was detained for such beliefs, but then allowed to choose which ward they were placed on dependent on their chosen "gender identity ".
Psychiatry need to be given a long hard look at.

prh47bridge · 20/07/2025 12:29

MarieDeGournay · 20/07/2025 12:27

So is it true that JR is a descendant of the Russell who was PM during the Great Hunger?
Like Laura Trevelyan is a descendant of Charles Trevelyan?
The families did OK for themselves, didn't they?

That said, and even though JR's piece on yoga and riding Stormzy [her horse] reads like self parody, she has a job to do at the tribunal, and she's obliged to do her best for the people she is representing.

So while I admit my eyebrows are raised quite a bit above resting level.... who or what she is, and what her ancestors were responsible for, is irrelevant to the tribunal, and the advocates on both sides are doing what they are employed to do, JR as much as NC. Respect.

Re peaking: I always thought it was like the phrase 'We may have reached peak oil' meaning the point where oil no longer has the crucial place it used to have in the world economy.
I've seen it used humorously about things like the fad for designer stubble: 'Have we reached peak stubble?' etc.

No, she isn't a descendant of the Russell who was PM during the Great Hunger. Her husband is.

SternlyMatthews · 20/07/2025 12:30

IamEarthymama · 20/07/2025 12:11

Can I ask a huge favour?
I have just been asked for a explanation of what has led up to this tribunal.
i really don’t have time to write it all out without missing meeting up
with family so could someone please share one of the articles of explanations from this thread?
if everyone else is in trouble for neglecting day to day life then I can do it later.☺️
Im keen to share as questioner works for a local trust.
Thank you!

this article based mainly on the disciplinary minutes is as good as you'll get, probs the best
https://archive.ph/ouEIm

Namechangedagain999 · 20/07/2025 12:30

IslandsAround · 20/07/2025 11:22

The Herald journalists trawl through the bundle is illuminating.

Dr Upton was less than two years into his laydee journey. In the first year he had experienced some push back and had made notes about it.

As he joined he told his line manager I will be using laydee rooms as I’m a laydee and did before.

That same month in August 2023 Sandie waits outside the room to give him some privacy as he changed. And to ensure she wasn’t being watched by a man as she changed. He starts making notes on Sandie. He was looking to be offended. He was looking for challenge. He bit off much more than he can chew.

December happened because she literally had blood pouring out her cervix and vagina through her pants and through her clothing while at work. She could either stand with more blood pouring down her legs outside the room or she could ask for privacy while changing from a man.

Any biological woman would have understood to give someone privacy as they dealt with menstrual flooding in a small space. Beth is not a biological woman. Just a man looking for trouble.

Also - Fife said Sandie was suspended for safety concerns. It was clear there were no safety concerns raised when she was first suspended so that’s just a bald faced lie.

Im at the point I might just do a full timeline on this - and then do FoIs to the Trust for a hobby. We the taxpayers are enabling this abuse and lies - as we are paying the wages of the failed leadership of that organisarion.

Sorry if I have missed this and it doesn’t really matter anyway but was SP already in the CR and Upton arrived after her or was Upton already in there when SP went in?

MarieDeGournay · 20/07/2025 12:31

IamEarthymama · 20/07/2025 12:11

Can I ask a huge favour?
I have just been asked for a explanation of what has led up to this tribunal.
i really don’t have time to write it all out without missing meeting up
with family so could someone please share one of the articles of explanations from this thread?
if everyone else is in trouble for neglecting day to day life then I can do it later.☺️
Im keen to share as questioner works for a local trust.
Thank you!

I don't know if this has been answered - still catching up! but this looks useful
Tribunal bundle reveals new details in Sandie Peggie case | The Herald

anyolddinosaur · 20/07/2025 12:32

there are some hospital plans in a planning application here https://planning.fife.gov.uk/online/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=JFZCC7HFN9000

but whether it actually happened or looks like that now I wouldnt know.

SionnachRuadh · 20/07/2025 12:33

MarieDeGournay · 20/07/2025 12:27

So is it true that JR is a descendant of the Russell who was PM during the Great Hunger?
Like Laura Trevelyan is a descendant of Charles Trevelyan?
The families did OK for themselves, didn't they?

That said, and even though JR's piece on yoga and riding Stormzy [her horse] reads like self parody, she has a job to do at the tribunal, and she's obliged to do her best for the people she is representing.

So while I admit my eyebrows are raised quite a bit above resting level.... who or what she is, and what her ancestors were responsible for, is irrelevant to the tribunal, and the advocates on both sides are doing what they are employed to do, JR as much as NC. Respect.

Re peaking: I always thought it was like the phrase 'We may have reached peak oil' meaning the point where oil no longer has the crucial place it used to have in the world economy.
I've seen it used humorously about things like the fad for designer stubble: 'Have we reached peak stubble?' etc.

She's a descendant by marriage. I believe she has a rather posh (Scottish) background, but it's her husband who's the hereditary peer.

They're an odd lot, hereditary peers. The only one I've met in person is Lord Ponsonby, very nice chap, who comes from one of those aristocratic Liberal families that converted to socialism 100 years ago and have been giving service to the Labour Party ever since.

I must confess, I was more impressed to discover that Fred Ponsonby's grandfather was once arrested for drunk driving the wrong way up Oxford Street while on a pub crawl with Evelyn Waugh. I approve of this. If England is to have an aristocracy, getting arrested on pub crawls with Evelyn Waugh is the sort of thing they should be doing.

Lins77 · 20/07/2025 12:33

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 20/07/2025 12:18

There are lots of surprisingly swift routes to the top of the mountain for some it's sports, for some it's an encounter in what should be a sss, for some it's being called a bigot because they try to draw a line anywhere shy of total capitulation, for some it's award given to a man for best womaning, some people use a mixture of all the different paths but they all lead to top and once you are there you start to notice just how many paths there are.

Edited

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For me, it was JK Rowling. I didn't know anything about trans issues before that, other than a vague idea that the poor dysphoric souls needed support. Suddenly everyone, including my very woke teenage daughter, was vilifying JKR as an evil bigot. That didn't sound right from what I knew of her, so it made me start thinking about it a bit more. Then I read Helen Joyce's book and my eyes were really opened.

Lins77 · 20/07/2025 12:35

Namechangedagain999 · 20/07/2025 12:30

Sorry if I have missed this and it doesn’t really matter anyway but was SP already in the CR and Upton arrived after her or was Upton already in there when SP went in?

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Upton was already there changing at the end of his shift and Sandie went in because she had been caught unawares by a heavy period/flooding.