NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #33

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32

That article is brilliant and clears up quite a few points. Thankyou.

Also, can anyone legally minded explain that if he confirmed that Sandie hadn't done anything, it was all him and his remarkable clairvoyance predicting that she might do it in the future, who is she entitled to sue the arse off?

Him for misleading Fife? Fife for unquestioningly believing it?

Naomi Cunningham said that lying about such a big breach would be career ending.

Is it?

I don't discriminate; I'm happy to snarfle both Leibniz and Tunnocks! 😋 🐷

That's the default line they use when they have nothing useful to say. I wouldn't trust those numpties to run a bath, let alone an independent country.

It will help? How's he work that out?

Even the SNP surely cannot blame Westminster for NHS Fife's failings.

Perhaps I have misunderstood.

Jealous glare

Have I got this right - there is a CR for consultant (doctors) but as Upton isn’t a consultant he can’t change there. However although he isn’t an actual woman he can change in the female staff CR and anyone who doesn’t see this as reasonable is a meany and a bigot guilty of harassment?

If KS wanted to be kind why not let Upton change with her and provide the validation required?

Im really looking forward to the judgement as it seems NHS Fife will continue their case as they still haven’t finished flogging their horse (despite its death some considerable time ago)!

Oh, I won't be surprised if they try it 😂

I am trying to prepare myself for the magnitude of loss we will suffer if KS isn't called to the witness stand.

Unfortunately this weekend of high drama may lead Fife to concede?

If Upton is prone to narcissistic rage/fragility he may not be able to tolerate much more or think of his own longer term interests in the way Michael Foran has set them out. Who knows?

it would have been career ending for Sandie. Both NMC and BMA (regulators for nurses and doctors) are captured and Upton is still a training grade. At worst I can see the BMA giving him a suspension for a few months, possibly just telling him to go away and reflect. He should be struck off, I wouldnt place a bet on it.

Whether anyone will want to employ him after this is another matter. Many Junior doctors are expecting to be out of work in August.

Someone mentioned Registrars - they are doctors who have completed their first training posts. They may be in a specialty training post, so in a&e training to be a&e consultants (or anaesthetists I think, not sure but they may share some training). The term is sometimes used for people in non training posts who are a few years post qualification but I dont think that is technically correct.

He's in Cloud Cuckoo Land* and I say that as a lifelong Indy supporter.

I've posted before about my late DM, also lifelong Indy supporter and former SNP member, telling me she had voted "No"in the Indy ref.

I was incredulous and asked why. She simply said there were no politicians of sufficient calibre in Scotland to make it work. I've wished many times over the last few years that she was still here to hear her say "I told you so".

I have no evidence other than my own gut feeling but I reckon if IR2 was held tomorrow it would be more like 75:25 rather than 55:45.

Your DM was a wise woman! I voted Yes last time, and I don't mind admitting I was wrong. I'm glad the majority were wiser than me on that occasion.

I was all for Independence. Now? Not a chance.

I don't think our politicians (with a few notable exceptions across all parties) are capable enough frankly. We've got politicians who continue to defend this shit show because otherwise they'd have to admit how far the rot has encroached into our public institutions.

And without Westminister to be the big baddie (and a pp asked if they'd try to blame WM - of course they will!), our politicians would have to face accountability without anything to hide behind. And they'd fail.

I'm wondering if Upton had already got someone disciplined in his F1 year and that's why they were all running scared. Unfortunately if they did that individual would be out of time for an employment tribunal.

Lol. The TRA's on the Upton/Peggie threads on r/Scotland are not used to life outside of their trans reddits!

Hah! Basically a cross post with
Mochudubh.

This is her suing them.

This is a civil case - claims per Sex Matters website

In May 2024, Peggie submitted a formal claim to an employment tribunal against both NHS Fife and Dr Upton for sexual harassment, belief discrimination and victimisation* *including:

• being required to share a single-sex space with someone she believes to be male
• being disciplined and suspended after raising concerns
• being victimised for holding a gender-critical belief that biological sex is immutable.

The judge can take into account the false statements made by Beth in the NHS Fife investigation. The compensation will account for the unfair treatment.

Unlikely worth suing Beth directly.

What should happen is an internal grievance against Beth for lying in her statements made to employer and then changing truth on stand. That’s gross misconduct. He should be sacked. (Won’t be because NHS Fife keep backing those in the wrong).

Also should be put up for disciplinary proceedings by BMA for making false statements, seeking out Sandie and harassing her by lurking in the toilets for her to come out or noting when she didn’t enter the room to give him privacy, and for genuinely being unfit to practice as he thinks a male is a biological female and he said he would touch a patient who wanted to be cared for by someone of the same biological sex - ie he would touch a woman patient even though he is male and she didn t consent to the touch. So you know he’s got a lot to answer for.

The cab rank rule is a bit of a myth. Solicitors instruct Barristers who will be the best for a particular case. That’s why Lady Russell always appears for the Gender side while Naomi Cunningham appears for GC claimants.

And without the big bad Westminster, you'd have the awful GRR bill! There would be even more trans lunacy in Scotland.

If you'd told me 10 years ago that I would have been one of those writing to Alastair Jack to plead with him to enact Section 35, I'd have laughed in your face.

But I did.

Somebody on X suggested that KS was pencilled in for Tuesday (but that was before the Fife squirrels hit the Red Bull).

I've just started catching up, but before I get onto the serious stuff, I have to tell you NebulousDog that I'm still wiping away tears of laughter at 'before the Fife squirrels hit the Red Bull' 😂😂😂

Also should be put up for disciplinary proceedings by BMA for making false statements

The BMA is a doctors' union, it doesn't discipline anyone.

The GMC is the doctors' regulator. However it's if anything more captured than the NHS.

Without wishing to de-rail too far into indy territory, I personally feel the criticisms of the SNP for being indy obsessed and not focussing on the "day job" missed the mark.

You had ONE FUCKING JOB, SNP, deliver independence, that's it. All you had to do was keep the country ticking over nicely while you prepared. But ooh no, you had to go all-out to be the most progressive of progressive govts in the whole wide world and roll out an endless slew of batshittery and wankfulness.

I will never forgive them, ever.😡

Phew, that felt good. As you were.

I thought the cab rank rule applied to criminal cases because people have to be prosecuted/ defended for the Crown to function?

I think JR enjoys using weasel words, knowing that most people wont be very legally literate. She cant comment publicly that she is dealing with a massive conflict of interest, so she is playing with words that will be familiar to journos, but perhaps not quickly understood. At least until her stable boy arrives with the Getaway Horse.

Similarly on Friday in court she asked "Doesn't Fife Board have Article 10 rights? When she knows damn well that a body corporate doesn't have Human Rights.

Wait, have I missed something this morning? Has information come to light about the content of the disciplinary? That Reddit thread suggests they know there’s a discrepancy between what was said at tribunal and what was said at disciplinary?!

Honestly, I go to church and come back and everyone’s 5 rounds ahead again!