NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #33

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32

She is being called as a witness, almost certainly by NHS Fife. If they didn't call her, SP's team would invite the tribunal to draw negative inferences from that failure given the explosive nature of her emails. NHS Fife need to call her in an attempt to do some damage limitation.

I considered that, but it's wrong in both senses (i.e. referring to the person, rather than their interest, and the wrong word used, albeit a homophone).

So I assumed it would have been corrected before now if that were the case.

As you are climbing a mountain all you can see is the mountain in front of you. When you reach the top and stand on the peak you can see the whole landscape around you the bigger picture.

You aren't 'just being kind' to poor sweet Joanne (who used to Joseph) that kindness to Jo is unkind to the poor woman who has been sexually assaulted in the past and is now face with a man in the CR. You aren't just letting poor gentle gay Jo into the CR but also the men who get a thrill from women's clothes, women's spa es, women's presence. The ones who rifle through sanitary bins and wank in cubicles. The ones who aren't trans in any way but know they won't be challenged walking into a ladies these days so pop in to place a spy camera.

Once you survey the whole vista it becomes a very different view.

No she won't be short. You need to complete 450 practice hours in a three year period. Sandie works/ed 2 nights a week I believe, nights are generally around 11 hours. So accounting for holiday time off, 2023 = 46x22 = 1,012

She's well over for 2023 alone, and I believe she has returned to work for some of the time since all this kicked off.

There are quite a few people saying Upton is completely in the wrong and should never be in a female space, but still using female pronouns for him. I do remember being at that stage and thinking "fuck I wish I could just call these guys he/him so I don't sound so fucking stupid". At the time, though, doing it meant people who were at the same stage as I was would listen, and if I used correct pronouns, they wouldn't.

Still laughing over his "my people". You may be a long haired man in a dress who's in with the establishment and powers that be, but you still aren't Moses.

She was hired by the defendant in a civil case for her gender woo beliefs.

No criminal can rank rule here.

Not suggesting character assassination is fine but she was chosen for reason.

To revalidate you only need 450 practice hours over the course of 3 years. So it's likely she already fulfilled this requirement before her suspension.
If not, she will have made the hours up since.

Me too. Can't wait. I might combust if there are any unforeseen changes to the schedule.

Jesus. If a sensible position had been adopted on this from the get go, we would not be in this mess now.

Sensible way. At work, anyone can claim any identity they choose, dress how they choose as long as within work policy, request, but not compel others to use non sex aligned pronouns, like everyone else expect to be treated with dignity and respect.

SSS must be provided and respected, particularly is jobs where changing is mandated. Suitable alternatives must be provided for people whose sex and gender are not aligned.

Mad way. Everyone is who they say they are. Misgendering is a crime. Anyone can use any space regardless of sex. It is totally possible to change sex, and men can be biological women, so not possible to provide SSS.

Trans people have been led down the garden path by crazed activists. This was never going to fly, and now they feel like they have been robbed of something. They haven't, they took out spaces by stealth and now we are taking them back.

Oops. I cross posted with fannycam this time. These threads move so fast

Love this image - I picture him outside the female cr holding his staff up high singing ‘Let my people in’….

Haven't been listening to the news today - can anyone who has tell me whether any of the radio/tv news programmes had any coverage of the case in general, or the Friday night NHS Fife melt-down?

They just know this: They are right

Yes this is what I took from NHSF's embarrassing press statement.

Fife are not alone either, far from it. I read somewhere that only one trust in Scotland (Tayside) currently has any kind of single sex policy. This was in relation to guaranteeing intimate care from drs and staff of the same biological sex and if not available then as a minimum a chaperone of the same sex.

Scotland is not alone either as we see from the research collected on NHS trusts in England. We have staff on this thread who would currently treat trans employees in the same way as Dr U and Sandie were treated.

Judging by the statement from Fife it feels as though the SC ruling earlier this year has not filtered down yet.

Is it time for the Scottish government to issue instructions to all NHS Trusts? I would expect a grovelling apology on the lines of "we are very sorry, we fucked up and allowed the NHS to misread the EA2010 and the Employment laws." This should also apply to England with Wes Streeting making it clear to all NHS Trusts their legal obligations to patients and staff.
.

I'm trying to get my head around medical heirarchy:
A&E had about 20-30 consultants (those are the experienced qualified Drs, headed up by Kate Searle?)
Then some registrars(?) we've not heard about
Then there were just a couple(?) of newly qualified (from Uni) people - do I call those FY1's who do rotations (and that is hhow Upton ended up in Fife A&E and then (didn't he also do anaesthetics?)
Then loads and loads of nurses

Is it just the consultants who have the restroom?

It sounded on X as if the bundle has a floorplan.

There is a Doctor's Mess, that was discussed on Twitter but I think the purpose of that is to provide a space for doctors on call who live too far away to be allowed to remain home. We heard Elspeth Pitt talk about being on call Christmas Eve but heading home once her work was done. It would often/more usually be early career doctors, who work more nights and maybe don't live locally, who need a space to rest. It wouldn't be restful if the same space were a changing room, so I doubt that is an option.

Its only this week we've learned about the Consultant Corridor and I really hope KS is asked why she didn't offer Dr U the chance to watch the female seniors change, instead of the nurses!

@mrshoho

Is it time for the Scottish government to issue instructions to all NHS Trusts?

If only. The Scottish Government are the worst of the lot!

Which one of you is AMansA_Man? Stellar work.

(Reddit thread for those interested)

www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/s/wbHO3wnGni

I have approximately 10 assorted boxes of Tunnocks snowballs, caramel logs, wafers, and teacakes.
And they are just sitting there staring at me, now that I'm back in my diet.

Saw this before the edit and was amazed by the stamina of any mumsnetters who could drink all night and also stay focused on the legal arguments. 😂

She can, but you generally don't want to call a witness who will clearly be hostile. Much better to not call them and ask the tribunal to draw negative inferences from the fact Fife haven't called them.

@AmyDances If you dont like something why quote it and draw attention to it again?

I found it interesting that both Naomi and jane Russell talk about losing interest in the law. See the last but one paragraph https://www.holyrood.com/inside-politics/view,naomi-cunningham-im-fuelled-by-rage-and-ive-been-lucky

The Herald journalists trawl through the bundle is illuminating.

Dr Upton was less than two years into his laydee journey. In the first year he had experienced some push back and had made notes about it.

As he joined he told his line manager I will be using laydee rooms as I’m a laydee and did before.

That same month in August 2023 Sandie waits outside the room to give him some privacy as he changed. And to ensure she wasn’t being watched by a man as she changed. He starts making notes on Sandie. He was looking to be offended. He was looking for challenge. He bit off much more than he can chew.

December happened because she literally had blood pouring out her cervix and vagina through her pants and through her clothing while at work. She could either stand with more blood pouring down her legs outside the room or she could ask for privacy while changing from a man.

Any biological woman would have understood to give someone privacy as they dealt with menstrual flooding in a small space. Beth is not a biological woman. Just a man looking for trouble.

Also - Fife said Sandie was suspended for safety concerns. It was clear there were no safety concerns raised when she was first suspended so that’s just a bald faced lie.

Im at the point I might just do a full timeline on this - and then do FoIs to the Trust for a hobby. We the taxpayers are enabling this abuse and lies - as we are paying the wages of the failed leadership of that organisarion.

So when Upton stood there absolutely outraged and quivering in fear and trepidation, sobbing that I've never been spoken to like this in all my life, he actually meant since the last time, where I took notes?

John Swinney said that it was time for another push for independence, another referendum as that is what the people of Scotland want (and deserve). Last week in press I think.
edit: Was in Scottish National on Friday.
This calamity with NHS Fife will 'help'?

Thats the only account I have seen, anywhere, of the NHS Fife disciplinary hearing, based on its minutes, which are in The Bundle. It also gives the best account I've seen of the Christmas Eve incident.
(plus ofc his habit of obsessively documenting imagined slights).

Well worth reading.