NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #32

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31

Strictly speaking they are in prison for non-payment of the fine imposed for not having a TV licence. It's a fine distinction (no pun intended) but an important one. It's not correct that someone can be thrown in jail simply for not having a TV licence. If they pay the fine, there's no jail.

I don't believe it does. I pay for access to live programming and fully disagree with their agenda re gender issues.

There are other threads for the issue re licensing, with which I do agree in parts, this one is for the tribunal.

I'm a longstanding user, feel free to check my posting history to check I'm not usualy shilling for the BBC. I've got no skin in the game here, just didn't want anyone to get a fine or worse because they didn't understand the rules around TV licences.

Obviously you're highly unlikely to be prosecuted for accidentally putting something on for 5 minutes, but under the law it is a possibility. And having done some googling, it seems I was wrong about a jail sentence being a possibility (although I'm sure it was on here I read it)

I don't think that's quite right, is it? It's not that you can't watch any live content on streaming services such as YouTube, but that you can't watch live TV there. If your favourite blogger chooses to go live on YouTube, you don't need a TV licence to watch her. (That would be ridiculous, and also, is not true :-) )

*Unless you're using a technical meaning of "content", in which case it's worth pointing out that not everything on yt is content!

I don't know if this has been asked already, but what are the statements or public pronouncements that Sex Matters have made about this case?

The initial statement from Fife this afternoon mentioned something about them but I can't see anything on SM's website that fits that bill.

Anyone have any ideas?

Dr Upton is also a Respondent who shares the same barrister. Fife emphasised today that Fife cannot unilaterally make a decision on their next move. Which implicates Upton as the main reason for Fife to continue calling witnesses.

And which perhaps explains the peculiar way in which none of them helped advance the defense's case.

It's difficult to quantify such things but there seemed to be a lack of conventional HR-ese - the strenuous effort to avoid saying anything that might have legal implications - both in KS' emails and in the broadside published on Fife's website. From a wider perspective the stereotyped obsession of career bureaucrats spending their days industriously fashioning prose and labyrinthine processes to deflect liability no matter how absurdly remote, seems to have been replaced in part with a less productive and detail oriented religious fervor to maintain the organization's woke orthodoxy.

So, GCs are responsible for the violence TRAs threaten?

I genuinely cannot fathom why HR didn't go batshit crazy when they found out about that email KS sent condemning SP.

It's a massive organisation - maybe they didn't know.

Maybe they did - but had the good sense not to put their response in writing. When that sort if email goes out, your screwed, after the send button has been pressed it is too late.

There should have been a calm head asking the constants to slow down and take a step back, there always should be in these cases. Sometimes when managers are heightened about a situation, the best advice you can give is to step away from the keyboard, at least until the morning.

What I wonder about is why did NHS Fife put locker room in their statement? Another poster pointed this out. Do you think it was to try to move the language from changing room? Or did Comms run the statement through chat GPT who garbled the wording?

It is all so utterly baffling.

Of course. It's a variant on the "look what you made me do" line so dear to violent male abusers everywhere. It's also an extremely masculine approach to powerplay in toxic situations, IMO.

It makes no sense does it. I work in a line management role. It should be one of the first things you learn (or should already know if you’ve been managed well) that when an issue is brought to you then a gut reaction is not the best. You need to step away and consider. Even 15 minutes is better than nothing.

I can see in large organisations that people can get promoted and not be given space and education to develop these skills, but that’s no defence. Getting your leadership right is important!

AFAIK, all Sex Matters' statements are on their website, and also posted to their social media accounts.

Fife appear to be trying to say SM are being inappropriately gloaty, but why the fuck would they not be delighted, especially with the FWS/SC ruling which they did a lot to bring about. They're a campaigning charity and they're campaigning.

I wonder if someone at NHS Fife communications department is a true believer /TRA gone rogue : it's just too bizarre that there's now 2 incidents of really weird, non professional, ranting and biased statements /communications getting out, first as a leaked document sent to a parent requesting notes on her son, and secondly as the 'never-ending statement' published on Friday afternoon and edited multiple times since. There is some weird manipulative incompetence going on there, especially the insinuating and overly personal statements, Petulance is right - this doesn't seem like the work and words of a communications dept for a public sector service provider, concerned with accuracy, explanation and reassurance of the public, mindful of their legal position and role as an unbiased provider of healthcare

Finally caught up. It's taken hours!
I. Have. No. Words.

Just caught up on yesterday evenings insanity.

I'm slightly glad those of us watching the tribunal are not commenting whilst it's live, or we'd be on thread 50 by now.

You're missing the point being made, there. The point is that Dr Upton's own side keep "misgendering" him.

Fife could offer no more evidence and simply submit to judgment. Happens all the time.

I think that's a reference to the person behind 'SEEN Police UK' which was a TRA run account mimicking the SEEN networks. It is a alleged that it's run by a former copper, the account has threatened to dox & has harassed us in TT, Sex Matters, Naomi, etc as well others. JR (IMHO) talked about this in front of the Tribunal like it was threats against the Rs side. I obviously don't know what threats they may have received but we are all aware of which supporter groups turn up with banners and flowers and which send rape and death threats.

Every new Fife person seems to get them deeper and deeper in the quicksand of their own making.

They would have been better off, instead of having reams of witnesses that are making it worse daily, to just call nobody and let the judge take SP's word for whatever happened as it really has just got worse with every single person they brought on stage.

Particularly as there's already demands on the site stuff board to remove these threads from trending. If we could comment 'live', it'd be even more trending!

I can't stop thinking about the injustice and stupidity of it all. I'm trying my best to keep Sandie at the forefront of this car crash. How alone must she have felt with not one person standing by her side in that place. What she and indirectly her family have been put through is shameful. The accusations of racism was indeed a new low and those involved must be held accountable.

I know this is NHS Scotland but this case sheds light on the entire NHS. We know this is not an isolated case and how many other employees are currently being shamed into keeping quiet and putting up with inadequate employment protection? And to top it off the Unions could not even be relied on give support.

We can see from Knotty's excellent research that each NHS Trust handles policy and procedures that varies from Trust to Trust. Shouldn't there now be a central point where policy is unified. Is the NHS just too big? The waste of money just in DEI nonsense alone must be staggering.

Finally caught up.

For my own reference, and for anyone that’s interested, apologies if already covered and I missed it, but here’s a list of witnesses still to appear (yesterday’s included)

NHS Fife Tribunal Witness List

Just let JR say 'yes, they did it guv' and give themselves some time off.