NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #32

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31

Who is telling them that?

@Peregrina
I'm not sure who you are quoting. But the whole thing is much deeper than IB. It comes from the very top, Scotgov SNP / Greens and Stonewall

TBH I'm surprised that Fife aren't using the Scotgov ideology and the self-id stuff they were pushing at the time as their defence as to why they thought he had the right to use the ladies changing room.

Well, politicians, to be fair.

Yeah, I got the impression it must've been written all over him.

There are additional witnesses as the first half took place without full disclosure.

TRAs.

They tell themselves, and each other. A collective sense of solidarity in the teeth of constant attack.

ironic really, given it is transactivists themselves who are the ones screaming at women, threatening them, having them arrested, fired and punched.

Yes, but the claimant's case can be re-opened if additional evidence emerges. The tribunal isn't going to stop SP's team using evidence from Upton's phone just because they didn't get it before Fife started presenting its defence.

And they had no policy on it and relied on half baked "advice" from equalities bod Isla Bumba who unfortunately had little clue what she was doing.

Now that makes sense thanks.

I look forward to finding out what they've found on the phone. Are they allowed to search all of it, inc photos?

I don't think we have any idea of the scope of the phone investigation yet.

Since the forensic examination was agreed between the parties, they will presumably have agreed the scope of the search. They should only have been looking for information relevant to the case.

I noticed "my people" too. Who does he think he is, Moses???

Yes, I think from IB’s evidence that ED had approached her for advice on an anonymous TW’s entitlement to the women’s changing rooms and IB said it would be discriminatory not to allow it? So there was an opportunity to push back but actually the opposite happened.

It in no way negates DU informing everyone that he’d be using the ladies.

I realise I'm picking up on one of the least important points in the entirety of these threads but.. sorry I can't help myself, my Inner Pedant will not be denied

McLeod and MacLeod are exactly the same name, they are both anglicisations of Mac Leòid, the son of Leod, Nic Leòid if you are a woman.

Whether or not the 'Mac' was shortened to 'Mc' at some point in history was completely random.

My own Irish family name was also anglicised in various ways over the centuries by British officials who couldn't spell Irish, and different branches of the family have different versions of the name.
We're not MacLeods, but if we were, I'd have cousins called McLeod, but it's the same family name, the same clan.

People with names like Mahoney/Mahony/O'Mahoney/O'Mahony - all anglicisations of Ó Mathúna, get used to being addressed by all or any version of their name, and presumably so do Mc/MacLeods?

A few mentions like this came up

eg re: Isla Bryson (his words not Sandie's!)

DU - awful, really really upset. I've never been spoken
DU - to like that. It was awful to be compared to someone like that. Someone casting aspersions on my people. I was upset and afraid actually I didn't know what it would mean going forward, would have to raise it but just wanted to extricate myself.
JR - why were you afraid?
DU - away from others, unlikely to be overheard, comparing you to someone who has committed terrible acts and they are confronting you and saying things about your community I was afraid. It was hurtful

later:

JR Nov hearing for this case: what's happened to you since decision?
DU Aware of, have avoided SM and news, been informed by ppl I've asked to inform me that numerous articles about me. Hostile SM activit
DU Private info made available. Trying to ID me at work. Contacting members of family. Upsetting as private. Derog and hostile convos re me and my community.

Nice Times piece. Leading with JKR as the headline, then takes the opportunity to cover the highlights (or lowlights) of Fife’s cast of miserables. Sandie Peggie tribunal is Nicola Sturgeon’s legacy, says JK Rowling

https://www.thetimes.com/article/965de2f3-f516-45e9-8bc9-251dee59df45?shareToken=4403080edf369fead17620894fc677a2

They do look alike

It was also the ideal opportunity to develop a clear policy which they should have already had, given that NHS Fife definitely has more than one trans member of staff.

His people are men. Men are absolutely more violent and dangerous than women at a class level. His complaint about aspersions being cast on them is just the old misogynistic trope that women acknowledging male violence is worse than male violence, for 2025.

"My people..." Fuck off. You may be a long haired man who wears flowing clothes and gets welcomed and elevated by powerful people but that's where the similarity to Moses ends.

@MarieDeGournay

all anglicisations of Ó Mathúna, get used to being addressed by all or any version of their name, and presumably so do Mc/MacLeods?

Not in Scotland they don't!
Of course, Macs and Mcs are distantly related, but here they are very much different names and different families. Macs are typically Scottish heritage, and Mcs typically Irish heritage. Definitely not interchangeable! I didn't know that was the case in Ireland: very interesting!

Quite. A female doctor behaving the way Upton did would be told to go outside for 5 minutes, get it together, then get back to work. Escorted to his car for safety?

What danger did DU think he faced from a woman so much smaller than him? Did he genuinely believe that not being allowed into a changing room was some sort of visceral harm? What did he think would happen to him that he had to be escorted to his car to avoid?

If you believe DU was upset maybe…. But on camera in Part 1 DU gave NC hard stares when walking from the witness stand to the exit. I expect he wasn’t thinking about how this was seen by those of us watching on camera… Two of DU’s friends at one stage sat directly behind NC in a poor attempt to intimidate Sandie’s team and also see their computer screens. They refused to move when NC asked - the Judge had to intervene. DU sat on the stand for 2 days and “schooled” us. Sophistry and extreme confidence. It was a performance and a half. Then his sheer size which was imposing next to the clerks & barristers and a 6 strong support squad who sat behind DU where the stenographers are now. No I don’t think much would cause DU to go into a fluster - at work or in private life!

Would you agree though that someone called, say, Neil McDonald, would likely correct someone if they wrote his name as Neil MacDonald.

I've certainly called someone MacKay and was barked at 'McKay!' before!

It is being suggested that he is a close relative, possibly her father. If that were to be the case, one would expect them both to spell the surname the same way. And, as others have said, this speculation is unhelpful and risks MN pulling the thread. The NHS employing someone incompetent in a non-clinical role is hardly a major surprise, nor is them employing someone who is sympathetic to trans "rights" in a DEI role.

Oh well, FWIW MNHQ say biological facts are a-ok, but my tone and emoji use was a bit goady. Fair enough!

They are amazingly quick tonight! Thanks MNHQ 😘