NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #32

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31

That is exactly why it's essential for Fife-related shenanigans to not end up in trending.

Junior doctors (as in F1/2) in psychiatry can be very insulated from patient contact. Sometimes the role is reduced to sitting in review meetings taking notes for the consultant, updating prescriptions, possibly reviewing minor physical health concerns and updating the boilerplate bits of paperwork.

It's not like being a nurse or support worker, where you are frequently exposed to risky situations and just expected to get on with it.

The anger comes from the difficulty of the cognitive dissonance.

This is a real issue. I was pondering it earlier when I listened to Michael Foran's podcast (would recommend).

He states that NC pointed out to GM that there were more moderate ways to sort out the changing room issue and the solutions could have included DU being offered a unisex facility, keeping sss for SP etc. He reports this is where NC mentions that while this would solve the practical issues it didn't work as affirmation and therefore didn't happen.

However, I know from working in the NHS that there is a strong suggestion through the policies that even suggesting that the tw wasn't a woman by offering them a different changing room to bio women wound be discrimination and against policy. I think it would be the same today that people would be terrified to "other" a tw in that way because of the culture that has been created. Acceptance without exception etc.

I know the law, and the sc ruling supporting that. But it really isn't how it is in the NHS at all.

Wasn't Upton just role playing a female stereotype? I bet if Upton was in male mode he wouldn't be crying at work but as a woman...(most women wouldn't of course but then they aren't acting out stereotypes)

ok, understood. I went to delete, but it had gone already.

Ha ha. The whole of the Scottish govt was exchanging Whatsapps on their personal phones during Covid! And then deleting the messages.

Thank you for understanding

Has anyone else noticed the absence of a day 3 podcast from Michael Foran?

I think yesterday was so chaotic and inexplicable even he is finding it hard to articulate the ossies!

@FingleGlen
where can I listen to Michael Foran’s podcasts ?
edited for typo

Plus at least one - I've seen it and I don't do Twitter/X. There must be a good few like me that have seen it reproduced elsewhere.

I am fortunate to have not had to visit A&E for 15 years. Presumably A&E would have been a tad busy on Xmas Eve, after the pubs shut? I suspect a few staff might have noticed a Dr wailing around the cubicles, Kate Bush Wuthering Heights-like?

I've just seen an advert for Whitstable Pearl -Kerry Godliman should play Sandie in the film

Just catching up, so addressing posts from quite a few pages back.

i too have an interest in genealogy and enjoy the evidence hunt and working out the lives of my ancestors. Its led me to all sorts of areas of history I previously had no idea about, and I’ve got to the bottom of a couple of family mysteries, reunited a parent with a much loved cousin they lost touch with as a child, and gained a whole bunch of relatives in America and Canada through DNA testing and none of us can work out our link yet. Best guess so far is that an undocumented relative of one of my ancestors on one particular branch of my tree emigrated to N America in the 19th Century, and/or was a sailor, and had a girl in every port.

Linking to the topic of media reporting, I found @RedToothBrush post about the role and demise of local journalism was excellent and I had a lightbulb moment. About 100 years ago, one of my direct ancestors was murdered and there was a lot of salacious detail that came out at the inquest. It was extensively reported in several local papers and even got a brief paragraph in the Manchester Guardian. As Red said, much of it was verbatim evidence from the witnesses in court. But not one paper gave all the details and I’ve had to piece together the full story from reading three different reports. Interestingly, where a detail was mentioned by more than one report, they were the same (eg age and name of witnesses). So I concluded that the facts that each journalist was accurate, but they all picked out different scandalous bits to focus on.

https://knowingius.org/

Absolutely!

They’ve devoured the Kool-Aid.

Yes, I've been refreshing frequently, having just decided to subscribe yesterday. I did wonder whether he might be busy in his role as advisory group member for Sex Matters, thinking it might be a busy weekend if they wanted to react as a group to the NHS Fife statement. But he did say he was busy straight after the hearing on Friday and would post either that evening or some time at the weekend, and that was before the excitement started, so likely it's just as planned.

I agree. He's the poster boy for male entitlement.

But wasn't it the case that DU was keeping notes from the very start of the A&E rotation because it ended up with the contradictory complaints by DU

• that SP waiting outside for him to leave was considered harassment because it was failing to embrace her as a woman
• but SP entering the cr was also considered harassment because DU "felt threatened" by her being in the cr

Yes I think so. I was reading his evidence from February today and he was making notes instantly. Looking for trouble where there wasn't any. He probably didn't actually know Sandie's name at that point.

I doubt it. If he didn't find anything or his findings were uncontroversial, it would normally be dealt with through a witness statement. The fact he is being called suggests that one side wants his evidence and the other side wants to cross examine him, presumably in an attempt to throw doubt on his evidence or suggest a different interpretation. I don't have any more information than anyone else on this thread, but I'm hoping it will be the final nail in Upton's coffin.

No, it wasn't her being in the changing room that was threatening. It was her being in the changing room and asking him to leave. However, I agree that the evidence suggests he was looking for someone he could complain about.

And it’s definitely greater than that…. Because I have seen it, and I’m not on Twitter!!

This thread has lasted 24 hours. At the weekend. While the Employment Tribunal was not in session.

Anyway, I want to be ahead of things so I've already set up the continuation thread. Since there are still a couple of pages of this thread to go, could people remain here until it's full before moving over to the new one?

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33

Which side to you think is calling him?
Esp given some of the clangers the defence have dropped this week.