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NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #32

1000 replies

nauticant · 18/07/2025 21:09

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31

OP posts:
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29
GrumpyUngulate · 19/07/2025 14:10

BeLemonNow · 19/07/2025 13:31

Searle sent the email (in evidence) around the consultants condemning Sandie and damning the integrity of the investigation.

Other defence witnesses have agreed this shouldn't happen (but bizarrely didn't object at the time).

Searle could have supported Dr. Upton in general times without mentioning Sandie by name or any details about what actually happened.

Edit - wrong tag sorry

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It does seem bizarre that not one of the recipients had the common sense to question whether this email was appropriate. Tells us something about the culture of NHS Fife that this was considered normal. In particular the near-complete absence of HR.

KnottyAuty · 19/07/2025 14:10

prh47bridge · 19/07/2025 12:53

Agree it isn't relevant. Even introducing it shows that Fife wants to punish her for wrongthink.

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If I were on the panel I’d be thinking - is this all you’ve got to defend the multiple policy breaches?

nutmeg7 · 19/07/2025 14:10

LarkLaneAgain · 19/07/2025 13:50

Up to you @anyolddinosaur if you want to post a link to a vendor who also sells mugs saying I'd stab a bitch for you .. right in the kidney.

I was pointing out what his other " funny" items were.

You could have checked who you were linking to. A bit of due diligence. I don't give people who also sell mugs joking about stabbing "bitches" my money.

That is all from me on the matter.

Edited

@anyolddinosaur was posting a bit of light-hearted humour in passing. We all had a giggle at the mug, and went on with our day.

But you seem to have made it into a preaching opportunity. Just give it a rest, it doesn't bloody matter. It was a passing bit of amusement, we didn't all promise to go and buy one to support the evil vendor.

rebmacesrevda · 19/07/2025 14:11

Finally caught up with this thread 😅
Thanks Dr Cosmic for the balloons; I thought the rainbow colours were most appropriate in the circumstances. I'm glad to hear the (Dundee) Courier and the (Glasgow) Herald are making waves all that way down south. I hope the local rags in Essex take note!

Arran2024 · 19/07/2025 14:11

I know that the senior doctors had their own room. Did all female junior/trainee doctors share the nurses' room? Was there a separate room for male nurses and male junior/trainee doctors?

Lins77 · 19/07/2025 14:12

Arran2024 · 19/07/2025 14:11

I know that the senior doctors had their own room. Did all female junior/trainee doctors share the nurses' room? Was there a separate room for male nurses and male junior/trainee doctors?

Apparently the room was used by female nurses, doctors and support staff. I assume there was a male equivalent.

KnottyAuty · 19/07/2025 14:12

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 19/07/2025 13:22

Dr U had finished for the night but still managed to sob conspicuously to a supervisor. SP got on with the next 8 or so hours working and we have seen no suggestion that it in anyway affected her performance that night. She didn't dash off to find a senior nursing colleague, she cracked on. The insistence on her silence came later but even without it Sandie seems to have put her work ahead of her feelings.

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Because to her she’d made a factual statement in a calm manner to tell a colleague she thought their behaviour was inappropriate. She had no idea she’d been branded a transphobic bigot who would be made into an example. That only started to hit home when LC phoned to put her on special leave…

TheHereticalOne · 19/07/2025 14:13

GenderlessVoid · 19/07/2025 11:55

@SionnachRuadh Many years ago I was involved in a long and frustrating correspondence with the Guardian, who were being dishonest about an area I had specialist knowledge of, and that whole thing soured me on trusting journos with credentials. Journos without credentials can be valuable even if they're rough around the edges.

Realizing that a story is inaccurate when it deals with an area that we know well is common. There is a related cognitive bias that I think is interesting (and I still do it even though I know about it). I.e., when I read a story that deals with something I know a lot about, I'll recognize that it's bollocks. But I still give at least some credibility to stories that deal with other subjects.

Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case [Murray Gell-Manna Nobel Prize-winning physicist], physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them.
In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.
That is the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect. I'd point out it does not operate in other arenas of life. In ordinary life, if somebody consistently exaggerates or lies to you, you soon discount everything they say. In court, there is the legal doctrine of falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus which means untruthful in one part, untruthful in all. But when it comes to the media, we believe against evidence that it is probably worth our time to read other parts of the paper. When, in fact, it almost certainly isn't. The only possible explanation for our behavior is amnesia.
— Michael Crichton, "Why Speculate?" (2002)

Edited

Occasionally, though, you'll read something like the report about the first instance judgment in Maya Forstater's case and it sounds so absurd that a lightbulb will go off in your head and you'll remember, "HANG ON, I know that papers frequently report incredibly incorrectly on my own specialist subject... this must be like one of those!"

And then you happily (and a bit smugly) trot off to read the original source in order to understand the Real Story and Important Nuance, only to find that the facts are even madder than reported.

That was a trip.

BeLemonNow · 19/07/2025 14:14

I agree r.e. no comparison to Isla Bryson. It appears Dr. Upton inferred this (obviously very upset) based on some men in women's prison comment, went on Datix and this was circulated as gospel harassment by all staff.

It's one of the reasons getting a clear factual not feels account from both parties early on is key in any workplace dispute, for both of their sakes. You could say invite both in for an interview with a neutral party. I'm not HR it's just common sense.

Similarly Dr. Upton inferred that Sandie was in the changing room to confront him (in the middle of her shift, end of his) but it quickly because clear she wasnot.

Dr. Upton may have still wanted to continue the complaint once this was clarified, but equally someone else may have not and agreed with some sort of informal resolution.

ArealAdultHumanFemale · 19/07/2025 14:20

MyAmpleSheep · 19/07/2025 13:55

I think… that only the Health and Safety Executive and local authorities can take action against an employer for infringements of the Workplace Regulations. I’m pretty sure individuals can sue.

that makes it rather difficult for an employee who wants single sex toilets whose employer and local authority aren’t cooperative.

Individiual employees have proceeded up to now on a claim for discrimination for toilet issues - the famous precedent about the woman who was told to check the men’s was empty then hang a sign on the door saying a woman was inside.

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Trade Union H&S reps can, also.
Another thing the RCN didn't do!

MyAmpleSheep · 19/07/2025 14:22

ArealAdultHumanFemale · 19/07/2025 14:20

Trade Union H&S reps can, also.
Another thing the RCN didn't do!

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Unfortunately, it will be a little while before trade unions and local authorities are any help on this subject, judging by what is reported online.

alsoFanOfNaomi · 19/07/2025 14:22

Personally I find it easy to believe that Sandie may have said things that were clumsy and/or ill-judged, mentioning any or all of chromosomes, prisons, Isla Bryson. In the circumstances though, even if she did, it seems entirely understandable. She was in a state where she really needed privacy, and she had already tried through the proper channels to ensure she'd get it and got nowhere. If Upton was upset, that's his own fault and arguably the fault of his employer, not of SP.

LarkLaneAgain · 19/07/2025 14:28

nutmeg7 · 19/07/2025 14:10

@anyolddinosaur was posting a bit of light-hearted humour in passing. We all had a giggle at the mug, and went on with our day.

But you seem to have made it into a preaching opportunity. Just give it a rest, it doesn't bloody matter. It was a passing bit of amusement, we didn't all promise to go and buy one to support the evil vendor.

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Well, perhaps I'll explain my preaching as you call it. I live in southport. So you may think I'm over reacting, but you havent had to live here the last year and it's the anniversary is coming up of it all. So seeing things like that aren't so funny to me.

Binglebong · 19/07/2025 14:29

I'm sorry but I think you would struggle to make a mini series/film about this. For drama you need build up for the WTF moments to have impact. This is ALL WFT so if you fitted everything in you would have no time to include build up.

MyAmpleSheep · 19/07/2025 14:29

alsoFanOfNaomi · 19/07/2025 14:22

Personally I find it easy to believe that Sandie may have said things that were clumsy and/or ill-judged, mentioning any or all of chromosomes, prisons, Isla Bryson. In the circumstances though, even if she did, it seems entirely understandable. She was in a state where she really needed privacy, and she had already tried through the proper channels to ensure she'd get it and got nowhere. If Upton was upset, that's his own fault and arguably the fault of his employer, not of SP.

I believe this is an important part of the case. If it is held that DU should not have been using the changing room because of his sex that will excuse a much fiercer response from SP to DU in the moment. Imagine Pete the Plumber complaining that he was “upset” SP told him to leave - who would entertain that as a legitimate grievance against her?

NebulousSupportPostcard · 19/07/2025 14:30

BeLemonNow · 19/07/2025 13:49

Hopefully, it is also worth pointing out that under the NMC code nurses have a responsibility to tackle racism (which apparently there are rumours Sandie was which naturally she denies).

Quoting a UK nurse educator on Reddit on a thread asking what to do with rascist colleague:

If you don't escalate to management you are complicit.

It is every nurses duty to report this behaviour.

The NMC is very clear.

I assume this applicable to nurse associates too. There doesn't seem to be any registered nurses on the list so presumably none would testify against her. I doubt Sandie would ask any as witnesses in that environment.

Sandie did have support from a colleague during the investigation saying she didn't notice anything transphobic in a discussion with Upton which Upton claimed she deliberately ignored him.

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Which list? There are quite a few registered nurses giving evidence?

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 19/07/2025 14:30

alsoFanOfNaomi · 19/07/2025 14:22

Personally I find it easy to believe that Sandie may have said things that were clumsy and/or ill-judged, mentioning any or all of chromosomes, prisons, Isla Bryson. In the circumstances though, even if she did, it seems entirely understandable. She was in a state where she really needed privacy, and she had already tried through the proper channels to ensure she'd get it and got nowhere. If Upton was upset, that's his own fault and arguably the fault of his employer, not of SP.

Absolutely, when you are faced by a man claiming he is a woman you can either agree or try to word your complaint differently to try and get him to see that in your eyes no he is not a woman. Unfortunately Dr 'am not a robot and I am a woman so I am a biological woman' Upton wasn't going to take any version of arguement from SP something he admitted in the tribunal, there was nothing she could say or do other than total compliance that he wouldn't fine upsetting.

But not a moments consideration to the fact Sandie might find his being in the CR upsetting.

BeLemonNow · 19/07/2025 14:32

@alsoFanOfNaomi I agree, yes, as I can easily say from my armchairs I wouldn't have mentioned prisons.

Obviously someone doesn't have to be 100% perfect in how they raise concerns for it not be harassment.

Unfortunately women are often held to this ridiculously high bar.

Sandie did a very good job staying calm in the circumstances.

anyolddinosaur · 19/07/2025 14:35

Sandie could easily have said she didnt mention prisons at all. She didnt, she said she did but not Isla Bryson. Personally I think she was feeling cornered, alone in a room with a much larger man between her and the door and was comparing her situation to a woman in prison unable to escape.

Upton had made notes of Sandie waiting outside the changing room before and discussed with Searle in case it escalated. He was already preparing a case against her and said himself there was no way she could have asked him to leave that would have been acceptable to him. He wasnt happy if she waited outside, he wanted her in there and uncomfortable.

BeLemonNow · 19/07/2025 14:38

NebulousSupportPostcard · 19/07/2025 14:30

Which list? There are quite a few registered nurses giving evidence?

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Apologies my post was misleading in terminology. Yes I don't mean management who are nurses but a similar level and qualifications to Sandie.

Some list I saw earlier had "nursing associates". Old fashioned me, the alternative used to be called "registered nurses". I couldn't see any around Sandie's grade.

I understand now they are all now registered by the NMC so I think the code of conduct where they are obliged to raise cases of racism from a healthcare worker applies.

I suppose they could claim they raised it to a manager but then you've got to wonder why the manager didn't do anything.

UtopiaPlanitia · 19/07/2025 14:41

Taytoface · 19/07/2025 07:56

I am trying to wrap my head around why NHS Fife decided to put out that statement.

Organisation wise, this would have to has come from the top with approval from CEO and very likely chair of the Board. I have been turning it over, but I cannot see how they could come to a conclusion that making any statement,never mind one as bonkers as this, at this particular juncture would be helpful to them.

Even without the possibly accidental implication they were inciting violence, the content about SM was totally unhinged. Whinging about campaigning organizations campaigning is not a good look.

All they have done is draw even more attention to this case, and demonstrate that the rot goes all the way from the shop floor to the top. Reflective practice is not going to cut it this time, multiple heads will need to roll.

An organization I used to work for for into some bother in this arena. They made some unwise statements, but as soon as the inevitable back lash came and the Board got involved, that genie was put firmly back in the bottle never to come out again.

One of the Boards role is to support and guide reputation management. There would usually be someone on there with a comms background, who should be able to provide guidance and advice. The Board is also massively culpable here. I am struggling to think of another example where an organization has been shown to be so inept.

I agree. I commented on an earlier thread to the effect that Fife’s comms team are remarkably snippy and passive aggressive in their public statements. But last night’s debacle was a definite case of 'hold my beer'.

I don’t know why Fife keep trying to commit seppuku via press release but they do 🤯 It gives vibes of Monty Python’s black knight 😁

BeLemonNow · 19/07/2025 14:45

@anyolddinosaur agree. Sandie came across at the tribunal in Feb as honest and genuine, whilst Dr. Upton came across as slippery as hell.

Sandie also said she had no idea Dr. Upton was upset afterwards.

Unfortunately that meant she didn't write a contemporaneous account as she saw it as a discussion between colleagues.

rebmacesrevda · 19/07/2025 14:45

Binglebong · 19/07/2025 14:29

I'm sorry but I think you would struggle to make a mini series/film about this. For drama you need build up for the WTF moments to have impact. This is ALL WFT so if you fitted everything in you would have no time to include build up.

What about a sitcom then? Working in that hospital sounds a bit Green Wing to me.

Butchyrestingface · 19/07/2025 14:46

Lins77 · 19/07/2025 14:01

This is what I find so hard to credit - that one person's word was accepted so completely, with no apparent attempt to find out the other side of the story.

I can't imagine this happening in any other scenario where there is a dispute between two members of staff. This was immediately assumed a "hate incident" and apparently no further evidence was required.

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Well, there are the classism, ageism and doctor-nurse hierarchies to consider as well as the transphobia angle.

Doubt Dr Searle would have been quite so trigger fingered had Staff Nurse Sandie Peggie been a (male) senior consultant or clinical lead. Instead, she was just an uppity female nurse (of a certain age) who had the temerity to challenge a (young, male) doctor so KS probably felt fairly safe to start firing off the emails.

PonyPatter44 · 19/07/2025 14:47

I've finally caught up and basically I've been wearing my Shocked Pikachu Face since about Wednesday evening. What on earth are NHS Fife playing at? Are there no actual grownups who can take back control from these incompetent zealots?

I feel terrible for Sandie, I really do. Bad enough to be mis-managed by arseholes, but this is like being mismanaged by Sooty and Sweep with lanyards.

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