NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #32

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31

A minor point in the grand scheme of things, I know, but what was the problem about staff birthdays? I missed this. Thanks.

Up to you @anyolddinosaur if you want to post a link to a vendor who also sells mugs saying I'd stab a bitch for you .. right in the kidney.

I was pointing out what his other " funny" items were.

You could have checked who you were linking to. A bit of due diligence. I don't give people who also sell mugs joking about stabbing "bitches" my money.

That is all from me on the matter.

I just meant he's so inexperienced he barely knows basic workplace etiquette but is throwing his weight around demanding to be worshipped, essentially, as one of the sacred caste. His youth accentuates the arrogance at demanding everyone else bow down to him to meet his needs.

It's detective work, isn't it? You've got incomplete information and you have to be very careful about guesswork. But sometimes you strike gold, and that's the most satisfying bit.

I've had a note for ages to try to find out what happened to a relative who was transported to Tasmania in the 1830s. I've got the record of his conviction, being put on the boat at London, getting off the boat at Tasmania, and then he vanishes off the face of the earth. Knowing how rough the Tasmania penal colony was, a gruesome murder is quite likely, but I just don't know what happened to him.

It seems they did not, considering fifes counsel said she had not read it and the solicitor behind her couldn’t assist do she had to have a break and make a phone call. And given that they appear belatedly to have realised it was arguably defamatory so have rewritten it 4 times and plastered caveats all over it.

It also brings up the point that everyone in that department was all hands on deck when transphobia was alleged but seemingly ignored (alleged) racism.

It's not a good look for them.

@LarkLaneAgain I said I hadnt seen the mug you refer to. I had a quick look and still didnt find it. Maybe you are right and they also sell an unpleasant mug, maybe you are an alternative vendor who want to push a different website. Feel free to offer an alternative.

Will you lot slow down? Im now 2 threads behind.

My suspicion is that the importance of establishing how urgent EP felt the matter was ties in with the lack of risk assessment and enquiry. If she felt it was OK to wait a week before having a meeting about the issue, there was plenty of time for due process rather than rushing to suspension.

And I've seen lots of talk about KS's email, but have you all seen the follow up ones? Sorry can't post them as taking a brief break while driving from Cornwall to Shropshire, but they're on Maya's X as replies to her post of the first letter, if someone else can do screenshots.

BBC is reporting that SP is suing RCN, is this the first time that this has been said? Can’t quite keep up with the moving information!

I think… that only the Health and Safety Executive and local authorities can take action against an employer for infringements of the Workplace Regulations. I’m pretty sure individuals can sue.

that makes it rather difficult for an employee who wants single sex toilets whose employer and local authority aren’t cooperative.

Individiual employees have proceeded up to now on a claim for discrimination for toilet issues - the famous precedent about the woman who was told to check the men’s was empty then hang a sign on the door saying a woman was inside.

KS appears to have built the bonfire complete with stake without even pausing to call the witch finder to inspect SP for a witch mark or quiz her about her familiar.

She doesn't seem to have given a seconds thought to the idea that Sandie might give a different version of events. She was judge, jury and executioner based solely on Dr U's word. Her email would still have been bang out of order if she'd spoken to Sandie and Sandie had confirmed Upton's version while cackling and stirring a cauldron but without so much a check of the other parties take on events it's jaw dropping. NC must have rubbed her hands in glee when she saw it.

@ThierryHwasthebest I think I read it in the mail a few months back but maybe that was that she was considering it and this is the confirmation

Oh, just staryed thread 31 and it looks as if you may already have them.

It would not surprise me if no-one responded to Searle's email. Surely most people would be too sensible to put anything in writing in that environment? However Naomi will want to try and establish if it's more non disclosure.

I haven't been following this case closely but it's high profile in the media has drawn me in.

A couple of things I can't work out though: what did SP say when she challenged BU? Is that established? I've seen a witness yesterday refer to isla bryson being mentioned by SP. Is that right?
Does it make any difference inthecase?

Also why isn't the key issue that Fife NHS shouldn't have allowed BU in the women's changing rooms in the first place? They allowed a man to invade women's spaces and failed to keep female employees safe. Surely that's the central point? Then the bullying and harassment of SP after is all just additional outrageous injustice?

I know there's loads of info at the start of the thread but there's almost too much and I feel like I can't find some basic facts to explain the current position so if anyone can get me up to speed on that I'd appreciate it.

Thanks, so much happening all at once.

This is what I find so hard to credit - that one person's word was accepted so completely, with no apparent attempt to find out the other side of the story.

I can't imagine this happening in any other scenario where there is a dispute between two members of staff. This was immediately assumed a "hate incident" and apparently no further evidence was required.

You need to find roles for Mark Bonnar and Jamie Sives as they are in every drama series made in Scotland

Yes. It's not well managed. You get access for the full 11 days & there doesn't seem any way that you can surrender your access to allow someone else to take your place. I'm not sure whether you lose access if you don't view the ET for a day or two but I don't think so.

Totally agree.

It really teaches you to pay attention to detail and to double check your references and evidence, cross referencing everything. It can be easy to mistake someone for someone else.

DNA has really helped in double checking records too.

I have cases where I've suspected something and the DNA has proved it. And vice versa. There's definitely a branch I have a massive question mark over.

There's been tiny details that have provided breakthroughs too. An address on a manifest at us immigration proved that my great grandmother went to the USA in 1910 which no one in the family had a clue about. It helped me trace her siblings too who did emigrate.

You learn to pick up on how the tiny details can be the crucial point...

It's a skill that the rent a mantra crew never developed. It doesn't really surprise me that there's a number of genealogy fans here as a result. Critical thinking and evidence based research are very much the bedrock of it.

As far as I recall - she said DU shouldn't be in the changing room as she found it intimidating. DU said he had a right to be there. SP referred to the prison case which had been in the news recently at the time but didn't mention Bryson specifically. She said she was trying to make him understand how a woman would feel in this situation.

DU said she had compared him to a rapist which he found very upsetting. SP said she had never mentioned rape or Bryson by name and didn't actually know what Bryson was in prison for.

Yeah, I thought this too. Perhaps those 20 consultants know that KS has form for loopy behaviour and didn't want to get dragged into it.

The CR at the centre of this is “officially” the locker room but it’s used instead of the official distant CR in the Basement which apparently no one uses. From Part 1

Sandie gave a very clear fluent testimony recalling all information when quizzed about the incident including who was standing where. And her version denied the more lurid version that Dr U gave to colleges at the time and later.

The good Dr was a little less clear and lots of Ems errs and couldn't remembers and was unable to recall who was standing where etc (important for a 6' + bloke claiming he was cornered) he also rolled back from saying SP had called him Isla Bryson and said it was more his inference from her mentioning prisons.

At least that is my recollection of the events back in February.

No, it was neither of those too instances. I was watching remotely and it caught my attention enough to have made a note of it.
I've checked my contemporaneous handwritten notes (!!) and they say 'JR calling it the 'female locker room' . It's followed by a note in which EP describes how it is less than 30 seconds from the wellbeing room. It didn't appear in TT's notes in which they use the abbreviation 'f cr' instead. Which is a pity but completely understandable as that's one of their standard abbreviations which they have to use to have any chance of keeping up with what is being said . So no shade on them at all -they do an amazing job!

I agree that the use of locker room in the statement feels American and adds to the suspicion that AI played some part in it.