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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #32

1000 replies

nauticant · 18/07/2025 21:09

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31

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Thread gallery
29
alsoFanOfNaomi · 19/07/2025 08:22

prh47bridge · 19/07/2025 07:45

It is correct. You cannot watch any live content on a streaming service. It doesn't matter whether that is a major sporting event or your favourite blogger. The law does not attempt to differentiate between different types of content. What you think is ridiculous and untrue is actually true and is the law. Your favourite blogger going online is classed as a TV programme, so falls within the definition of things you can't watch legally unless you have a licence.

Well, you'd better have a word with TV licensing about their website, then!

A licence is not required to view user generated content, clips and videos on YouTube. This includes live streamed content that is not part of a television broadcast.

https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/faqs/FAQ104

https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/faqs/FAQ104

CarefulN0w · 19/07/2025 08:23

Wishiwasaway · 19/07/2025 08:17

Delurking to say I have followed this board for years. I am in awe of the women on here and in the wider world who acting for all of us. Thank you.

Have added my thanks in the form of donations and will continue doing that today.

Separately has anyone seen Michael Foran’s latest Twitter post.

Good. I hope she wins. And I say that as a (reluctant) member of the RCN.

We need a GC forum to challenge the blue hairs.

nauticant · 19/07/2025 08:23

KnottyAuty · 19/07/2025 08:17

I’m so gutted. I’d drafted a post with links to the versions for easy access and then got banned by Cloudflare. What’s that about?

So sorry folks I can’t repost but I think I found why they name checked Sex Matters. Will try to post the link …

As I understand it, if you draft a post, when it's being saved (which often happens automatically even before you press Post) it's scanned by Cloudflare and if it finds too many link in the draft or ones that it categorises as dodgy for some reason, you get a automatic temporary ban.

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Butchyrestingface · 19/07/2025 08:24

Herald headline this morning is that Super Sandie is suing the RCN.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #32
NeedToChangeName · 19/07/2025 08:25

Wishiwasaway · 19/07/2025 08:17

Delurking to say I have followed this board for years. I am in awe of the women on here and in the wider world who acting for all of us. Thank you.

Have added my thanks in the form of donations and will continue doing that today.

Separately has anyone seen Michael Foran’s latest Twitter post.

Bit more info here

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/2025.07.19-055218/www.heraldscotland.com/news/25325910.peggie-sues-rcn-lack-support-nhs-fife-trans-row" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.ph/2025.07.19-055218/www.heraldscotland.com/news/25325910.peggie-sues-rcn-lack-support-nhs-fife-trans-row/

nauticant · 19/07/2025 08:25

alsoFanOfNaomi · 19/07/2025 08:22

Well, you'd better have a word with TV licensing about their website, then!

A licence is not required to view user generated content, clips and videos on YouTube. This includes live streamed content that is not part of a television broadcast.

https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/faqs/FAQ104

Without a licence I'm quite hot on what I won't do. The most "grey area" item of content I've found for my viewing is Free Speech Nation (GB News) on youtube. So I only watch that once it's finished live streaming.

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KnottyAuty · 19/07/2025 08:26

Wishiwasaway · 19/07/2025 08:17

Delurking to say I have followed this board for years. I am in awe of the women on here and in the wider world who acting for all of us. Thank you.

Have added my thanks in the form of donations and will continue doing that today.

Separately has anyone seen Michael Foran’s latest Twitter post.

Ya beauty!
I hope the NMC has enough sense to learn from Fife and settle without the court hearing...

Charabanc · 19/07/2025 08:27

anyolddinosaur · 19/07/2025 08:22

@Charabanc @GailBlancheViola I'm not saying they did ..... is a way to get the action they didnt do into the minds of the readers alongside their name. I doubt their lawyers told them to do that, they probably told them to remove all reference in the statement and issue a separate apology.

Yes that's what I mean. Sex Matter's lawyers will have been screaming merry hell at them to take down the libellous statements. Which Fife then did. But have left up with disclaimers. Disclaiming something which is now not mentioned in the Statement 🙄

But I see what you mean - very much a "When did you stop beating your wife?" disclaimer... Very sneaky. And I doubt the lawyers will let it stand.

CapeGooseberry · 19/07/2025 08:27

A reminder that in Scotland witnesses yet to give evidence are not allowed to watch or discuss the proceedings.

Will be interesting to know who saw the statements…

borntobequiet · 19/07/2025 08:28

Waitwhat23 · 19/07/2025 00:28

I may have missed it but have the BBC done their usual interview with a drag queen about today's events?

I just checked the website and sadly no ☹️

Maybe they’ve all gone on holiday, exhausted by Pride month and all those drag queen story times, really takes it out of them, I imagine.

langtounescapee · 19/07/2025 08:29

Thanks to all for the regular updates and explanations on these threads which alongside the amazing tribunal tweets and others on X made it possible to follow proceedings this week despite a busy few days at work.

As someone who grew up a stone’ throw from the Vic and has spent a fair bit of time in that A&E over the earlier years of Sandie’s long years of service this whole car crash is shockingly fascinating to me. I knew, (not well- it’s just not that big a place and they come from families involved in churches and community groups) 2 of the board members, and I can’t wrap my head around how people who seemed to have gone on to become so well educated and successful can be a part of such an absolute farce. I left Scotland long before the whole SNP gender insanity took hold and it saddens me greatly.

I donated to Sandie’s fundraiser and will now to Sex Matters. Unfortunately my own profession is alsonone of those captured so I am still forced to be guarded in my opinions but it’s a huge relief to see the tide turning this year and believe that science and reality may triumph after years of insanity.

nauticant · 19/07/2025 08:29

Hahaha @KnottyAutyat the utter dog's breakfast the auto-formatting here has made of your post above. I've fiddled with editing links like that and haven't yet found a solution but I think there is one.

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KnottyAuty · 19/07/2025 08:30

hholiday · 19/07/2025 08:06

Contempt of court is not uncommon. Nor is defamation. But it’s quite rare to have a go at both in the same statement. And from what other posters have said, Fife were also involved in a data breach. Were they going for the hat trick?

THIS ^^

alsoFanOfNaomi · 19/07/2025 08:32

KnottyAuty · 19/07/2025 08:26

Ya beauty!
I hope the NMC has enough sense to learn from Fife and settle without the court hearing...

Edited

The union concerned is the Royal College of Nursing, RCN. NMC, the Nursing and Midwifery Council, is not a union but a regulatory body.

prh47bridge · 19/07/2025 08:33

alsoFanOfNaomi · 19/07/2025 08:22

Well, you'd better have a word with TV licensing about their website, then!

A licence is not required to view user generated content, clips and videos on YouTube. This includes live streamed content that is not part of a television broadcast.

https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/faqs/FAQ104

It is a good thing that TV Licensing are choosing to interpret it that way, but that is not what the law actually says. As far as the law is concerned, you need a licence to watch any live content. However, this is taking us down a rabbit hole and is definitely off topic for this thread, so I won't be saying any more on this subject.

CriticalCondition · 19/07/2025 08:34

I wonder if anyone at Fife woke up in a sweat this morning and for a blissful couple of seconds thought they'd had a crazy nightmare about an insane defamatory statement ...

ButtSurgery · 19/07/2025 08:36

Right, I'm reasonably caught up, but haven't been through twenty million tweets or pages....

The Fife press releases (all versions) scream ChatGPT to me. The syntax, the format, the headlining throughout. Maybe a few human tweaks have been made but I'm pretty sure of it.

Any views on that?

Waitwhat23 · 19/07/2025 08:37

CriticalCondition · 19/07/2025 08:34

I wonder if anyone at Fife woke up in a sweat this morning and for a blissful couple of seconds thought they'd had a crazy nightmare about an insane defamatory statement ...

More likely they woke up with a chuffed 'well that's them telt!'

And then saw the papers.....

anyolddinosaur · 19/07/2025 08:38

According to the Scottish press "Ms Peggie has been on sick leave with stress since February and cites her treatment by NHS Fife as the sole reason."

We dont know if Upton is still employed (by NHS Fife or anyone else) or not. As he took sick leave when he was "distressed" by Sandie if he's on sick leave again it may be unpaid.

He had rotations at Fife in psychiatry, a&e and anaesthetics. Looking at when he qualified and that he had a non training post I suspect other rotations somewhere but maybe as Theodore rather than Beth.

KnottyAuty · 19/07/2025 08:40

ButtSurgery · 19/07/2025 08:36

Right, I'm reasonably caught up, but haven't been through twenty million tweets or pages....

The Fife press releases (all versions) scream ChatGPT to me. The syntax, the format, the headlining throughout. Maybe a few human tweaks have been made but I'm pretty sure of it.

Any views on that?

I just asked ChatGPT if it had written the statement. It denies all knowledge and suggested I ask NHS Fife Press Team 😂

borntobequiet · 19/07/2025 08:40

On second thoughts, I’ve donated handsomely to Sex Matters more than once - totally worth it, but at the moment Faye Russell-Caldicott’s
crowdfunder to Protect Single-Sex Facilities at Work also involves the NHS and takes a slightly different approach to the same issues as in the Peggie case, so I will direct my money that way.

I have issued an employment tribunal complaint against NHS England for indirect discrimination on the basis of sex (women), religion (Islam), philosophical belief (gender critical) and disability (PTSD) for having a policy in place which effectively renders the supposed single-sex toilet, changing room and showering facilities as mixed-sex.
According to NHSE’s trans staff policy, transwomen (born males) can use female facilities in addition to male and gender neutral facilities. Which means that NHSE expects women to share female facilities with biological males. If a woman is not happy with that, she is directed to use the gender neutral toilets, and transwomen (males) can continue using the female facilities. The policy is blatantly discriminatory against women, especially in those office bases where the showers are open plan.
Simultaneously, my claim also includes claims of direct discrimination, harassment and victimisation related to my philosophical belief (gender-critical).

Easily found by Googling the relevant information above.

alsoFanOfNaomi · 19/07/2025 08:41

prh47bridge · 19/07/2025 08:33

It is a good thing that TV Licensing are choosing to interpret it that way, but that is not what the law actually says. As far as the law is concerned, you need a licence to watch any live content. However, this is taking us down a rabbit hole and is definitely off topic for this thread, so I won't be saying any more on this subject.

Edited

I haven't checked but will guess that the law in question was written before any other kind of live content than TV had been envisaged. Be that as it may, it's entirely clear that someone who only watches things TV licensing says they can watch without a licence can never successfully be fined for not having a licence; that would be even more obviously unjust than the treatment of SP. And now I'll let it rest too!

ItisntOver · 19/07/2025 08:42

Margaret Gribbon being her usual, excellent self re: the RCN. Her handling of media in addition to her legal skills is truly remarkable.

The Herald understands Ms Peggie, who worked in A&E at Kirkaldy’s Victoria Hospital, claims her union turned its back on her because it “had adopted gender identity belief as its institutional belief, and was therefore unwilling or unable to recognise that she was or might be entitled to insist on the maintenance of the female changing room as a single-sex space”.
She also claims the union failed to acknowledge her belief that she was experiencing discrimination and harassment from NHS Fife and Dr Upton.
Ms Peggie’s lawyer, Margaret Gribbon of McGrade Employment Solicitors in Glasgow, said last night: “The RCN’s failure to act like a trade union ought to, has contributed to Sandie Peggie’s mistreatment.
"They have repeatedly failed to exercise their industrial muscle to advocate for female members distressed because they are being deprived of genuine single-sex spaces to dress and undress at work.
“Had the RCN fulfilled the conventional role of a trade union, it is less likely that Sandie would have faced the ordeal of an 18-month disciplinary process and having to raise legal proceedings against Fife Health Board.”

Shedmistress · 19/07/2025 08:42

The 'we didn't say Sex Matters was' is very much in the 'We didn't burn them' avenue of dark comedy.

KnottyAuty · 19/07/2025 08:46

Posting this again as it was tucked at the end of my messy link post - NHS Fife just before the Tribunal Restarted being unhappy with Sex Matters:

Statement - Opinion piece regarding the ongoing employment tribunal
A comment was sought on the following opinion piece from a representative of Sex Matters.
15/07/2025

Question:
A comment is sought on the following opinion piece from a representative of Sex Matters:-

Are women allowed a male-free changing room at work? Seems like a no-brainer, but not if you have a male colleague who says he is a woman.
This is what happened to the Scottish nurse Sandie Peggie. When she objected to his presence, she was suspended from work.

Peggie brought a claim for sex discrimination and harassment against her employer, NHS Fife, and the trans-identifying male doctor who insisted on using women’s facilities. The tribunal ran out of time in February, and her hearing resumes this week.

In the meantime, there has been a seismic change in the legal landscape. In April the Supreme Court ruled that in the Equality Act, “woman” means a biological female, so a “women’s changing room” is only for females - and always was.

This sounds like a slam dunk for Nurse Peggie. But NHS Fife has given no sign that it understands employers aren’t legally allowed to let men use women’s spaces, even if those men “identify” as women. It seems set to continue defending the case, at huge public expense.

NHS Fife is not the only public body failing to follow the law as set out so clearly in the Supreme Court judgment.

Across the UK, many seem unwilling to say No to men who identify as women.
Sex Matters, the charity I work for, is planning legal action against the City of London Corporation, which runs open air swimming ponds on Hampstead Heath.

It insists the Ladies’ Pond is open to transwomen – that is, to trans-identifying men. More court cases are likely to follow.

Response:
A spokesperson for NHS Fife said: “As made clear during the earlier tribunal proceedings, NHS Fife's investigation was initiated following concerns raised about conduct, not because concerns were raised about a trans woman’s use of a locker room.

“NHS Fife did not initiate the ongoing legal proceedings and is instead defending an action brought against it. A recent statement from the Claimant’s legal representative said she is determined to continue with it, as she is entitled to do. The case concerns a number of different claims and allegations, against NHS Fife and its staff. NHS Fife is seeking to defend itself, via the appropriate legal channels.

“NHS Fife also acknowledges the Supreme Court’s ruling and other developments in this area. Work is underway across the entirety of the health board's estate (including toilets, changing and locker rooms) to identify areas where any adaptions may be required and schedule any work necessary."

[ENDS]

www.nhsfife.org/news-updates/latest-news/2025/07/statement-opinion-piece-regarding-the-ongoing-employment-tribunal/

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