Trans man denied Gender Recognition Certificate over attempt to conceive

[IwantToRetire]

A trans man has been denied legal recognition of his gender by the Gender Recognition Panel (GRP) after it ruled that his attempt to conceive a child meant he was not “living as a man”. The decision has sparked outrage among human rights advocates and legal experts, who argue it breaches both domestic and international human rights law.

Article continues at https://www.scenemag.co.uk/trans-man-denied-gender-recognition-certificate-over-attempt-to-conceive/

Do most women love the idea of being pregnant? Not my experience of me and the people I know. I’m the women want children, and some REALLY wanted children, but the pregnancy was a means to an end, not something anyone I’ve ever spoken to personally has craved in itself. Second pregnancies in particular are often something to get through as you know what you are in for and pregnancy tends to come with a varying raft of “side effects”. I have read about women who say they love being pregnant but I think that’s actually a minority of women. Probably the same amount that have pregnancy phobia, or don’t like the idea of it - just other end of the scale with everyone else in the middle who just see it as a means to an end.

Yes, this was McConnell’s entire schtick, to say “of course I am ‘living as a man’, because men can get pregnant too you silly billies!”

Whether this was because McConnell genuinely couldn’t reconcile the body dysmorphia she has and the drive to be a mother and this became a convenient angle to present as an alternative, or whether the children were required to deliberately present this angle to the world, who knows?

Either way McConnell doesn’t come across as very smart. I remember how she had a mastectomy in her late 20s, and was shocked to learn she wouldn’t be able to breast feed her first child in her early 30s. At the very least, she had a surgical procedure without full consent.

Surely this is Rose of the Darlington nurses fame?!

Careful now! 😁

Just read the first post and my only thought:

Lolz.

How can anyone think ‘living as a man’ could include getting pregnant or trying to conceive?

The recent spike in GRCs being issued seems to be due to the fact that many people are seeking to acquire one with the intent of using it to continue improperly accessing single-sex services and spaces. This is because the GRA allows one to change one's birth certificate and sex is much more difficult to legally determine once that's done.

There seems to be some confusion about this even among those who are knowledgeable with the issue - Michael Foran saying that the long form can't be reliably used once a GRC has been acquired, but the EHRC draft guidance suggesting that it can be.

I wonder if this could be rectified with an administrative change or court ruling; or whether it would require an act of parliament?

I asked my Labour candidate how I could legitimately exclude a man with a grc from my single sex service since all his ID would say female. She said, you want to know how you would know if he was male? I said, no, I know he's male by looking at him but his ID will say female. She didn't get it but this anomaly does need to be addressed because we cannot rely on men to keep themselves out of where they have no right to be and I can totally envisage a court case when a man is put through additional checks that don't apply to the women using the service.

I’m pretty sure that this is a TRA claim that has taken hold. (That ‘the only response is to have a GRA legal sex change type of law’).

The European court tells national governments that they need to respond to inequalities. Doesn’t tell them how they have to respond.
this all happened nearly a generation ago. Remember that when the case was brought to the UK Government to respond to back in the day, this decision was happening when we did not have, eg, gay marriage because Parliament wanted to defer to church leaders and religious voters. There were numerous inequalities for same sex attracted people.

Laws and what’s permissible for same sex couples to change have changed thankfully since. Women’s concerns weren’t listened to.
I would like to see a legal analysis that comments on this changed legal landscape and looks at whether- since harm has been demonstrated by having this law- the GRA is still necessary or advisable to keep on the books.

The thing is that in that situation, you can refuse him access/service because it's up to him to prove he's a woman. He can't sue you because he isn't a woman.

They want the penny and the bun don’t they? Ridiculous.

And tbf any criminal (trans or not) with a bit of nouse and a desire to disappear his past (or at the very least make it extremely difficult to trace him and his criminal record) - they’d be stupid to risk missing this golden opportunity if it might be withdrawn at some point.

As an aside, I wonder what happens to the old birth registration/certificate that is superseded by the new birth certificate? Is there some official process that ‘cancels’ it? It can’t be ‘closed’ with a death certificate like normally happens so what happens? Does that identity become available for criminal exploitation?

Safeguarding and womens rights are only as secure as the weakest point in the process. And this is what happens when its European Judges who are the weakest point.

Why is it an inequality for a man to have male not female id? Governments should have stepped in to protect their citizens, not defer to a bonkers decision.

😂

It brings back Lily Tomlin in "All of Me". https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086873/?ref_=tt_mlt_i_1 Remeber when gender-bending was fun and we could laugh at sexist stereotypes instead of trying to live up to them?

(My nostalgic old lady persona was going to call them the good ol'days but of course they weren't. Those were the AIDS years. 😥)

... and document ID saying "Female" are not proof that someone is female.

For single-sex spaces to exist, there must be a document of sex that cannot be legally falsified like birth certificates, passports and driving licences can be.

I believe that the birth register remains unaltered. That was the impression I got from going to a talk with Akua Reindorff. A new birth certificate is issued but the main register is unchanged. This was why a proposed digital ID can't rely on birth certificates but would need to be the birth register entry.

Trans ideology is sexist at its core.
It's essentially about straight men colonizing womanhood for sexual gratification and some homosexual men in denial about their sexuality or trying to increase their dating pool (admission by one trans woman in a podcast interview - which made me lose any sympathy I had for him having his downstairs remodelled).

This is not the case for the women who present as men.
For most young women, it's just a fashion fad they'll grow out of.
For some young lesbians it falsely appears to offer a way to be straight especially if they come from a religious background where being lesbian is verboten.
For the most vulnerable young women, often raised in State care, it's often an attempt to escape from a past of sexual abuse.

So true, and how grim are those last two?

I've always thought the Alien films are about pregnancy.
Forcibly inserted lifeform..
Which feeds off you until...
It bursts out of you in blood and pain (I was hospitalised and needed a D&C after my second miscarriage)

No wonder men think it's horror.
And check out Alien Romulus - they agree with me.

Anyway her GRC can get in the bin.

I was pregnant, sat in the office when my sprog to be started hiccuping. I mentioned it to one of my colleagues, who was nearby, and he asked if he could feel it. I said he could but it would freak him out. He felt her hiccuping and, reader, it freaked him out.

The original article mentions a case before the High Court by the GLP. Does anyone know how to look up whether there is a result?

I really find this just sad. It’s another occasion where it feels like a baby is being used to make a legal point about “trans rights”. Having a baby should be all about the baby.

I felt the same when Freddie McConnell tried to assert herself as the father and the Irish man this week insisting he’s the mother.

It all feels narcissistic, all about the parent and not the child. It shouldn’t surprise me, but for me all these cases give more incentive and evidence suggesting the removal of the GRA would be a good step. These people are using children as a prop to pretend their human rights are being impinged, which is just off the wall, as far as I am concerned.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5428960-high-court-rules-that-a-trans-man

TERF here but oppose. The whole "living as a man/woman" is so nebulous you might as well include giving birth or (better) scrape it.

Also in theory if someone has genuine gender dysphoria they could still want to and give birth. Like someone can have anorexia can eat.

Do want you want, call yourself what you want, wear what you want, get a nice certificate of it just stay out of same sex facilities if you aren't that sex.

Thank you. I don’t read this board (or even Twix) as assiduously as I used to and I missed that one.

I shall now go read that thread, where others have likely also concluded that these kinds of cases, along with the fact that the SC judgment renders GRCs pointless anyway, should give rise to hard questions about whether the GRA has ever been fit for purpose or even coherent within a society where sex matters and gender is a pointless distraction..