Trans girl winning every race at primary sports day

[Minibea]

My DD is 8 so in year 3 at primary school. There is a male child who self-identified as a girl from roughly age 6 and has socially transitioned at school. I’ve discussed this with DD along the lines of the importance of being inclusive, respecting someone right to be addressed in the way that they prefer etc but have also been clear with her that this child is biologically male and that you can’t change your sex. All fine.

Yesterday was school sports day. The child in question won every single race again the girls. DD is quite sporty and was up there with a chance of winning in all the races so is disappointed.

I don’t want to be “that” parent with school, nor rock the boat with the parents, but as the kids get older I’m concerned about the message this is sending and also the implications for bathroom arrangements, residential trips etc etc. So I want to ask school to provide/confirm their policy around all of this but what exactly do I need to see/hear? And what “should” the policy be so I can sense check it against what’s actually happening? An idiots guide would be most welcome!

You’re absolutely right Minibea and you’re not that parent. Transgender Trend have a resource pack for schools https://www.transgendertrend.com/. Legally 8 is the age at which children should start having separate toilets and changing rooms. In a year or so’s time girls in your DD’s class will start having periods. As you say there will be residential trips, there will also be PE and swimming. The school needs to get this sorted now.

I would be that parent, I would ask why there is a boy running in the girls races…

I would also mention that I expect all the results to be amended (cf the thread on here about UPenn for an example of what they say they will be doing), or you will be happy to see the head in court for sex discrimination…

remember:

• schools rarely now care about your child (individual teachers might, schools rarely do).
• In a few more years you will have nothing more to do with them anyway.
• Supporting your daughter is important
• showing your daughter that men can not just trample over women is important
• you will be correct in law
• you are backed by the SC judgement - men can not be women - so, boys can not be girls.

also perhaps reach out to Sharon Davies or Martina Navratilova on social media - they are two of the biggest advocates for removing men from female sport

Girls drop out of sport because they do not believe that they belong there.. because there is a distinct lack of role models in everything that they see.. they believe that their achievements are not valued. If girls believe that they are not trying hard enough, not good enough, when they are out run by boys, they will slink off back inside and find something else to do with their time, rather than physical exercise. They deserve the chance to feel good in their bodies, to be proud of their strength, speed and stamina.. not to feel less than, because of their female bodies.

I was 'that' parent when boys were prioritised over girls... without the long unnecessary details.. it was a shitty day, but I am glad that I stood up for daughter - and every other girl pushed aside because the needs of one boy were more important than all of the girls.

At this age I think it’s all equal still. My dd is faster than some of the boys in her year and there’s a girl who often wins all the mixed races.

At my school the top 3 fastest in my class are 2 boys and one girl. It’s always close.

Adults telling that child they are a girl is child abuse IMO. Or would be in any sane world yet here we are.

There is a difference between having mixed sex races and having single-sex girls' races but then allowing a boy to take part

It's not equal. Boys have a significant athletic advantage over girls even before puberty.

womenssportspolicy.org/pre-puberty-male-female-children-show-marked-differences-in-sport-performance/

Not actually correct. Physical advantage is much less than post puberty but it still exists

womenssportspolicy.org/pre-puberty-male-female-children-show-marked-differences-in-sport-performance/

https://x.com/JamesLNuzzo/status/1891048913001746747

OP

if it is any help, this thread has several studies that are relevant to how even from 6 years old, boys have male advantage in sports.

This thread has the data from Australian and Greek school children and several reviews of USA school children. The results are clear.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?page=1

To be fair, lots of the 8 yr old girls beat the 8 year old boys at my dd's sports day (mixed races) so I don't think there is a huge amount in it at this age. I wouldn't say anything at this point. See how the school handles it later on when it starts to matter more.

It is is not true that boys do not have male advantage over girls in sports. It has been shown very clearly from 6 years old.

Just because your daughter is so exceptional that she is beating boys, doesn’t mean that male people should be allowed to compete even in female children’s sports.

I don’t want to be “that” parent with school, nor rock the boat with the parents,

I am guessing there are others of the same mind

The law is on your side now

In the words of our Prime Minister, they should just get on with it.

If you look at the athletics records in my country for kids the boys have the faster age group records from the youngest the records start - u7. It’s a tiny difference at that age and grows. Then you take the average non athletics kid and the average boy is faster because they run more. The sporty boys are also faster than the sporty girls with an occasional exception, but the sporty boys have running every day - footy, basketball. Cross country I think based on watching the club events girls and boys are more even. But both the u7s and u8s (the age groups I watch the finish for) still have boys come in first.

OP

Be that parent!

With the evidence to show that male children have advantage why on earth should girls lose fairness in their sports?

And also, don't forget it's a primary school sports day. Really it's meant to be fun, not about who has a competitive advantage over who. There is always one who goes before the whistle and they don't tend to get penalised for it. Thai year a kid lost his shoe and got another chance in the next race. The main thing for the school will be making sure everyone has a good time and participates....so if the trans kid wants to race against the girls then let him....

It is not necessary to justify why boys and girls should have separate races - the school segregates sporting activities by sex, no child has a gender recognition certificate.

Do not get drawn into the discussions ... for the past X years, Milltown Primary school has had boys races and girls races, this year, 15 girls in year 3, who missed out on having a girls race, because 1 boy identifies as a girl. The school is telling them that this boy is more important than them, he received medals, was congratulated and the girls had to run in the same race as him, pretending that they also believe that he is a girl.

The school should be smarter.

At this age there is no reason why the races should be separated anyway. And there should be teams.

My kid in primary- they didn't have any races where the kids ran as individuals and they were all team.sports with points added up at the end.

My daughters team lost even though she was really good. But it was all mixed.

How bizarre. At our school they don't have boys and girls races. Girls win just as much.

If they’re all equal physically, why does the WHO have separate growth charts for boys and girls?
You can check at the back of the red book.

I would have gone absolutely silent; no cheering, no congratulations, just silence. Pointed, silence.

And followed up with the school after. Why do girls have to be sacrificed for the poor mental health of some boys.

For you OP

MALE CHILDREN ADVANTAGES IN SPORT
Danish study on VO2 max and LBM in children from age 6

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1725036/pdf/v039p00725.pdf

Maximum oxygen uptake and objectively measured physical activity in Danish children 6-7 years of age: the Copenhagen school child intervention study

Eigberg, Hasselstrom, Gronfeldt, Friberg, Svensson, Anderson
October 2005

Objectives: To provide normative data on maximum oxygen uptake (Vo(2)max) and physical activity in children 6-7 years of age and analyse the association between these variables.

Methods: Vo(2)max was measured in 366 boys (mean (SD) 6.8 (0.4) years of age) and 332 girls (6.7 (0.4) years of age) from preschool classes in two suburban communities in Copenhagen, during a progressive treadmill exercise. Habitual physical activity was measured with accelerometers.

Results: Boys had higher Vo(2)max both in absolute values (1.19 (0.18) v 1.06 (0.16) litres/min (+11%), p<0.001) and relative to body weight (48.5 (6.0) v 44.8 (5.6) ml/kg/min (+8%); p<0.001) than girls. The difference in Vo(2)max between boys and girls decreased to +2% when expressed relative to lean body mass (LBM). Absolute Vo(2)max was related to LBM, body mass, and stature (all p<0.001). Boys were more physically active than girls (mean counts +9.4%, p<0.001), and even when boys and girls with the same Vo(2)max were compared, boys were more active. The difference in physical activity between the sexes was higher when sustained activity of higher intensity was compared.

Conclusions: Vo(2)max is higher in boys than girls (+11%), even when related to body mass (+8%) and LBM (+2%). Most of the difference in Vo(2)max relative to body mass was explained by the larger percentage body fat in girls. When boys and girls with the same Vo(2)max were compared, boys engaged in more minutes of exercise of at least moderate intensity.
_
Australian children

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=021cccdaed57d120bb05bac71c05ee82b0c5b315

Greek ( for those who have access)

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17461391.2015.1088577?needAccess=true

This link has many links and is particularly good for children’s advantages.

https://www.ultraphysical.us/p/beyond-t-sex-based-differences-in

Gregory Brown, Professor Exercise Science (primarily Exercise Physiology) at the University of Nebraska at Kearney.

I will post several more studies in another post

I’m a bit suprised they gave single sex races. In DD’s primary they mix all the races even in year 6.

Here is some of Brown’s research published February 2024.

Sex-based differences in track running distances of 100, 200, 400, 800, and 1500m in the 8 and under and 9–10-year-old age groups
Gregory A Brown, Brandon S Shaw, Ina Shaw
5th February 2024

^https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ejsc.12075^

"In conclusion, although some have stated that sex-based differences in athletic performance do not arise until puberty, the present data indicate that in the 8 and under and 9–10-year-old age groups males run faster than females in distances of 100, 200, 400, 800, and 1500m. While some females in these age groups are faster than some males, the average male finalists are faster than the average female finalists, and the fastest males are faster than the fastest females. As running is a key component of many sports, these sex-based differences between prepubertal males and females should be considered when sport governing bodies and policy makers consider the issue of sex-based sporting categories"

Having just spent the weekend with my 7yo twin niece and nephew, both of whom have gotten into wresting since I last saw them, I can promise you its not equal. There's a strength to my nephew that my niece just does not have.

ON PERFORMANCE DIFFERENCES IN CHILDREN

Sex-based differences in swimming performance in 10-years-old-and-under athletes in short course national competition

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ejsc.12237

Gregory A Brown, Brandon S Shaw & Ina Shaw
Published 7th December 2024

Conclusion
The present data indicates that prepubertal males swim 1.16%–2.63% significantly faster than females in the 50 yd (45.7), 100 yd (91.4), and 200 yd (182.9 m) freestyle, 100 yd backstroke, 50 yd breaststroke, 100 yd butterfly, and 100 and 200 yd IM, but not in the 500 yd (457.2 m) freestyle, 50 yd butterfly, 100 yd breaststroke, or 50 yd backstroke (although the differences in the 50 yd backstroke approached significance). The present data do not explain why there are sex-based differences in some, but not all, of these events. Based on the present and previous data indicating that prepubertal males swim faster than prepubertal females in most events, there seems to be little justification to eliminate sex segregated competition in youth swimming.

Furthermore, this study serves as a valuable contribution to our comprehension of the intricate interplay between sex differences and swimming performance in prepubertal children. Although further research is imperative to refine and expand upon our current understanding, the findings presented here underscore the significance of considering sex-specific factors in the assessment of swimming performance in prepubertal children. Acknowledging and investigating these differences not only advances our knowledge in sports science but also holds potential implications for training strategies tailored to individual needs. As we delve deeper into this realm, the multifaceted nature of sex-related influences on swimming performance in prepubertal children becomes increasingly apparent, allowing for more targeted and effective approaches in the pursuit of athletic safety, inclusion, and excellence.

Point made by author on twitter:

"In 8 out of 12 events boys swam significantly faster than girls and there were no events where girls were significantly faster. More evidence that sex matters in sports!"

https://x.com/BrowngaGreg/status/1865528288644382872

This is one of the main points:

Males were 1.16%–2.63% faster (p < 0.05; effect sizes 0.376–0.596) than females in the 50 yards (yd; 45.7 m), 100 yd (91.4 m), and 200 yd (182.9 m) freestyle, 100 yd backstroke, 50 yd breaststroke, 100 yd butterfly, and 100 and 200 yd IM. There were no significant sex-based differences in the 500 yd (457.2 m) freestyle, 50 yd backstroke, 100 yd breaststroke, or 50 yd butterfly. The individual fastest time for a female was faster than for a male in the 50, 100, and 500 yd freestyle, 50 and 100 yd backstroke, 50 and 100 yd butterfly, and 100 yd IM.

Although in eight out of 12 events the individual fastest times were from females, in eight out of 12 events the average male times were significantly faster.