Page 6 | Trans girl winning every race at primary sports day

Minibea · 2025-07-01T20:47:18+00:00

My DD is 8 so in year 3 at primary school. There is a male child who self-identified as a girl from roughly age 6 and has socially transitioned at school. I’ve discussed this with DD along the lines of the importance of being inclusive, respecting someone right to be addressed in the way that they prefer etc but have also been clear with her that this child is biologically male and that you can’t change your sex. All fine. Yesterday was school sports day. The child in question won every single race again the girls. DD is quite sporty and was up there with a chance of winning in all the races so is disappointed. I don’t want to be “that” parent with school, nor rock the boat with the parents, but as the kids get older I’m concerned about the message this is sending and also the implications for bathroom arrangements, residential trips etc etc. So I want to ask school to provide/confirm their policy around all of this but what exactly do I need to see/hear? And what “should” the policy be so I can sense check it against what’s actually happening? An idiots guide would be most welcome!

EasternStandard · 02/07/2025 09:42

xWildFlowerx · 02/07/2025 09:18

Most activities at my boys' school are mixed sex, but the races are separated by sex because in general the boys are going to be faster. DD starts school next year and if there was a boy in the girls' race I would not be happy at all. If that boy won I'd be telling DD that he's not the real winner as he's not a girl and the winner is actually whichever girl came second.

Sports day being 'just for fun' makes no sense in this context. What is supposed to be 'fun' about deliberately segregating children by sex but then for some reason allowing only one child of the opposite sex into a race? The races would then have to all be mixed as they would no longer be boy/girl.

Yes we have mixed events, low key a bit haphazard at that age. Ball throwing, bean bags whatever

The fastest race matters to the dc and is girls and boys.

I really hope you get this changed op, it’s incredibly important girls don’t learn they have to take the unfairness.

Lovelyview · 02/07/2025 09:45

TheOtherRaven · 02/07/2025 07:46

I've helped for a few years at the local playgroup sports day - at 3 the boys mostly are en masse out running the girls with a speed and strength they don't have, and staff quietly 'fix' the mixed group races to put the fast boys in together with the occasional couple of very fast and athletic girls, and the slower boys in girl-heavy races so that the girls don't have the endless experience of mostly losing to boys. Otherwise they do get discouraged, and they do perceive unconsciously, even at this age that competitiveness 'isn't for them'.

We see in gender ideology all the time this belief that girls and women are just props in male lives; a part of the resources and set dressing for the male experience, and this is where it starts. We have to get more alert to the messages given to girls that mostly are happening through wholly unconscious sexism and just not valuing girls as we value boys.

Why should the feelings of one boy, and his need to not be confronted with the fact that he is a boy, be more important than the interests of every other girl in his year? What message does that send?

Yes, it's very hard and uncomfortable (and lets be honest, this is mostly about adults wanting to save themselves uncomfortable and upsetting conversations), to have to gently explain to a boy with gender confusion that he cannot be a girl in all ways as he wants to because he is not a girl, but frankly that conversation is going to have to happen eventually. To avoid such a conversation (and likely with shouty and legally threatening activist parents too) schools have enabled shared toilets, dressing rooms, showers, sleeping accommodations - there is no line of the girls that isn't crossed, to the point of active safeguarding risks that would never normally be considered.

The SC has taken away the ability to hide behind girls just not mattering very much compared to a boy. Schools will HAVE to now draw lines, and it is much easier to help a boy within clear expectations from day 1 that while additional and different resources might sometimes be provided for him, he cannot have the girls' resources and that there are limits to how far a transition can go, because of other people's rights mattering too.

It is a whole lot kinder to teach this from the start at primary than the situation we are now in where there are very angry men who have never encountered a 'no' before, have been strongly enabled to believe that they matter and no woman does and that 'no' is a word they have exemption from, and really don't know how to cope with it.

Great post. I hope all the 'it doesn't matter, it's meant to be fun' crowd read it and start sticking up for the girls.

limescale · 02/07/2025 09:56

Sometimeswinning · 01/07/2025 22:31

At this age I think it’s all equal still. My dd is faster than some of the boys in her year and there’s a girl who often wins all the mixed races.

At my school the top 3 fastest in my class are 2 boys and one girl. It’s always close.

Incorrect. Your single observation is not the overall pattern.

limescale · 02/07/2025 10:02

DuchessofReality · 02/07/2025 06:35

I definitely think it is worth raising. BUT in my experience, and you will know your school best, heads HATE it being suggested they are wrong. So I would wait. There won’t be any more Sports Days this year. Don’t make it too much about what just happened.

See what happens over the summer. The new EHRC guidance will be out. The government I think is due to finalise the schools guidance. It is possible this child may de-transition.

After the summer, backed by the new guidance, raise it as in issue with school in a forward looking manner ‘in light of all the changes in guidance, can I check what your policy is now on…..’

I'd want my daughter to see me take action NOW, to be her advocate and show I do not support this nonsense.
It's quite simple - a male (whatever they identify as) should not be competing along side females.

Skissors · 02/07/2025 10:02

Sharron Davies the swimmer has campaigned a lot about this and was speaking very eloquently on the radio about the subject. Although she came from it wrt high level sport, said she has had letters from parents saying that their daughters are unable to have girl only races in school sports days.

Bonkers.

Nana4 · 02/07/2025 10:54

Given that Lia Thomas is to be stripped of his titles, and the rightful winners have had an apology and the titles awarded to them, I think there will be some interesting discussions over the next few months.

eqpi4t2hbsnktd · 02/07/2025 10:56

My daughter came in second in a gymnastic competition. 50 or so little girls. One boy. Guess who came first?

Helleofabore · 02/07/2025 11:13

I think there is also an issue where some people will dismiss a valid analysis of data that would be readily available to anyone if the analysis of readily available data has not been peer reviewed. It would be fine except that the knowledge has been understood for since children have competed against each other.

Just like this false perspective that the only reason for sports to be segregated by sex is that the men didn’t want to be beaten by women or because one truly exception woman athlete won a race once (but not the record and not won again) or whatever fallacious argument is put forward. No. There has not been a significant genetic change in female bodies. It is just that somehow some academics and campaigners have convinced people that there is no difference between male and female athletes so why do we either not allow some male people access or just abolish sex categories in sport.

Having seen the poor quality levels of some peer reviewed papers recently, I will take a not peer reviewed and relatively straight forward analysis that I can easily sense check myself over some peer reviewed data reviews that I have seen recently.

I think it is beginning to feel like wading through sludge with some people’s ideals prioritised above facts and knowledge that has been around for decades and decades, that now has had to be proven yet again to counter misinformation that has seeped deeply into our sports policies. It is like we are rediscovering the wheel. And it is the same wheel as two decades ago but people forgot about it.

Ariela · 02/07/2025 11:17

At 8, any running race DD always won, she was 2nd tallest in the class (despite being 2nd or 3rd youngest) but was very fit - we walked a long way to school and being ruralish everything is a hike, and as her choice she ran everywhere it was hardly surprising she was good. She was also good at football to the extent when they had a local football club in to train they asked which junior club she played for (none, she didn't play other than at at school). In the 600m she lapped most of her class, and was placed last for any relay as she could often recoup the win even if they were last when she took the baton.
I'm not sure there is much difference in boys/girls at age 8, it's when they get older. Our primary always ran it mixed. And yes, we did hear 'it's not fair she always wins.', but you get that in any sport.

Canijustsayonething · 02/07/2025 11:32

eqpi4t2hbsnktd · 02/07/2025 10:56

My daughter came in second in a gymnastic competition. 50 or so little girls. One boy. Guess who came first?

I would have been raging.

How did your DD feel about her 1st place being taken away from her by a boy?

Have you raised it with the appropriate Gymnastics regulatory body?

QuickPeachPoet · 02/07/2025 11:33

No way should this be allowed. The kid is 8! And the school and HIS parents are indulging this ridiculous 'trans' nonsense.

EasternStandard · 02/07/2025 11:33

eqpi4t2hbsnktd · 02/07/2025 10:56

My daughter came in second in a gymnastic competition. 50 or so little girls. One boy. Guess who came first?

Was it meant to be for girls or mixed?

Helleofabore · 02/07/2025 11:42

Ariela · 02/07/2025 11:17

At 8, any running race DD always won, she was 2nd tallest in the class (despite being 2nd or 3rd youngest) but was very fit - we walked a long way to school and being ruralish everything is a hike, and as her choice she ran everywhere it was hardly surprising she was good. She was also good at football to the extent when they had a local football club in to train they asked which junior club she played for (none, she didn't play other than at at school). In the 600m she lapped most of her class, and was placed last for any relay as she could often recoup the win even if they were last when she took the baton.
I'm not sure there is much difference in boys/girls at age 8, it's when they get older. Our primary always ran it mixed. And yes, we did hear 'it's not fair she always wins.', but you get that in any sport.

"I'm not sure there is much difference in boys/girls at age 8, it's when they get older"

Please read the studies that are on this thread. Maybe you will then be able to say that you are sure that yes, there is enough difference between boys and girls that girls should have their own recognition of being the winner of their race.

Your daughter is exceptional! But imagine if there was a boy the same age group who also did the amount of exercise and training (formal or informal) and kept beating her.

Would you have said to her 'it is ok DD, you are just not as good as him. He beat you fairly'? What do you think your daughter would think if you kept telling her that?

That your daughter is doing well is great, but do you think dismissing the science and declaring that there is no need to change is working well for girls in sport in general?

Just because your primary school 'always ran it mixed', with the evidence, do you this that is still right, or that maybe this is contributing to girls dropping out of sport from an early age?

Helleofabore · 02/07/2025 11:46

"My daughter came in second in a gymnastic competition. 50 or so little girls. One boy. Guess who came first?"

Well, if it was the boy, according to some people's opinion on this, the girls should just try harder. There is very little or no difference between the sexes therefore girls should just try harder.

Or... in another competition, the girls all beat the boy, so therefore girls don't need their own sports categories.

Or ... they are x years old, it is suppposed to be fun, girls should just suck it up if they lost. They participated and that is the main thing. Hey.... why are girls not participating in sports in the UK? It is a fucking mystery.

ChateauMargaux · 02/07/2025 11:50

@Helleofabore has articulated it well.

It really doesn't matter if one amazing girl is amazing. We have long term studies showing the difference in athletic ability between males and females... they are called the World Records.

And while puberty plays a big part in male strength and speed.. it is not the only factor.

In fact, physiology itself is not the only factor. Social conditioning including role models, unconscious bias in behaviour towards children, clothing .. and many many more.

Broadly our society has segregated boys and girls for competitive sport for a number of reasons... there is an argument that the very best performing females do better in a mixed or male dominated environment but there is also plenty of evidence that a significant majority of women benefit from female only spaces ... this was the focus of the efforts of many organisations who had aims to increase the participation of females in sport... until carving out spaces for females only, became challenging, people challenged the gendered language, the basis for the segregation and the definition of words.. so people slunk away, feeling unsupported and afriad of conflict. We need to reclaim this.

We know why we segregate boys and girls... it's not all about who is fastest (but that is a big part of it..) ... some of the reasons may not feel ideal or great to express out loud... but we know why there are fewer girls kicking footballs in the playground.. thank goodness that is changing.. the answer is not to put everyone together and say get on with it.. it is to put the girls in their own space, change their shoes and their skirts, show them how much fun football is, how good it feels in their bodies to move them, to use them, to feel powerful .. and then show the boys.. but even when there are AMAZING STRONG AND FEARLESS girls and women in the boys teams.. they have to be better, stronger and put up with a lot of negativity just to be allowed to show up.. it breaks many women. We deserve the right to do all of that, but be mediocre, be supported and enjoy ourselves.

If we lined up every year group and asked them to run across the playground... the bell curve of finishing times for girls and boys would have a very different mean... but across the country, the profile of that gragh would be similar...

I am boring myself now... but yeah.. not all peer reviewed studies reflect real world situations.

GalacticGymnastic · 02/07/2025 11:50

Ariela · 02/07/2025 11:17

At 8, any running race DD always won, she was 2nd tallest in the class (despite being 2nd or 3rd youngest) but was very fit - we walked a long way to school and being ruralish everything is a hike, and as her choice she ran everywhere it was hardly surprising she was good. She was also good at football to the extent when they had a local football club in to train they asked which junior club she played for (none, she didn't play other than at at school). In the 600m she lapped most of her class, and was placed last for any relay as she could often recoup the win even if they were last when she took the baton.
I'm not sure there is much difference in boys/girls at age 8, it's when they get older. Our primary always ran it mixed. And yes, we did hear 'it's not fair she always wins.', but you get that in any sport.

My 15 yr old DD recently lapped a lot of boys at a school cross country event. Because the boys were unwilling participants and weren't trying, are unfit, don't usually run etc. My DD is a club and county athlete, was trying hard and is very fit.

None of this story says anything about the need for single sex categories in sport nor the inherent differences between the sexes in terms of potential personal bests in cross country.

Anecdotes aren't data.

arethereanyleftatall · 02/07/2025 11:53

Talkwhilstyouwalk · 01/07/2025 22:47

And also, don't forget it's a primary school sports day. Really it's meant to be fun, not about who has a competitive advantage over who. There is always one who goes before the whistle and they don't tend to get penalised for it. Thai year a kid lost his shoe and got another chance in the next race. The main thing for the school will be making sure everyone has a good time and participates....so if the trans kid wants to race against the girls then let him....

Jfc this is a TERRIBLE post. Everybody doing whatever they like at all times and sod everyone else makes for a horribly selfish community. Amd this particular ‘do what you like’ is entirely in favour of males and harmful to females. We have enough misogyny in the world without getting the messages to 8 yr olds that boys can do whatever they want and girls must accommodate that.

Catiette · 02/07/2025 12:00

GalacticGymnastic · 02/07/2025 11:50

My 15 yr old DD recently lapped a lot of boys at a school cross country event. Because the boys were unwilling participants and weren't trying, are unfit, don't usually run etc. My DD is a club and county athlete, was trying hard and is very fit.

None of this story says anything about the need for single sex categories in sport nor the inherent differences between the sexes in terms of potential personal bests in cross country.

Anecdotes aren't data.

Show quote history

Well done to your DD. It breaks my heart that outstanding achievements like hers are being used by the bloody naive (I'm being generous) and utterly cynical (again, generous) to actually argue AGAINST her right to single-sex sport.

Talk about a Catch 22. It's unbelievable, really.

Heads you win, tails you lose, right?

limescale · 02/07/2025 12:01

Ariela · 02/07/2025 11:17

At 8, any running race DD always won, she was 2nd tallest in the class (despite being 2nd or 3rd youngest) but was very fit - we walked a long way to school and being ruralish everything is a hike, and as her choice she ran everywhere it was hardly surprising she was good. She was also good at football to the extent when they had a local football club in to train they asked which junior club she played for (none, she didn't play other than at at school). In the 600m she lapped most of her class, and was placed last for any relay as she could often recoup the win even if they were last when she took the baton.
I'm not sure there is much difference in boys/girls at age 8, it's when they get older. Our primary always ran it mixed. And yes, we did hear 'it's not fair she always wins.', but you get that in any sport.

So what? Do you recognise that your DD was a fast runner?
Do you recognise that overall there are difference between males and females? Or just because your DD beat most people (as I'm sure most of our top athletes did at primary school), you think boys and girls should run together?

arethereanyleftatall · 02/07/2025 12:02

ThePure · 02/07/2025 06:46

An 8 year old boy is pre puberty so if there is a difference in sports performance at this age it might just be due to being good at running. Sex related differences emerge post puberty. I would have thought that most primary schools have mixed races for that reason. I am no fan of trans ideology but pre puberty sporting advantage is not a thing.

Didn’t bother to read any of the studies upthread showing that there is an advantage before posting then?

arethereanyleftatall · 02/07/2025 12:04

Glowingup · 02/07/2025 06:52

Why? Surely if all the boys are better than the girls due to sex differences then the girls would be horribly disadvantaged in mixed races too and would never win?

Show quote history

Are you seriously that dim? Seriously?

Sometimeswinning · 02/07/2025 12:05

limescale · 02/07/2025 09:56

Incorrect. Your single observation is not the overall pattern.

Show quote history

Ah sorry is it only one opinion you can comment with?

My single observation (well 2 as I cover a couple of sports days) means there is an exception to the pattern. So it’s not always true.

Helleofabore · 02/07/2025 12:07

Sometimeswinning · 02/07/2025 12:05

Ah sorry is it only one opinion you can comment with?

My single observation (well 2 as I cover a couple of sports days) means there is an exception to the pattern. So it’s not always true.

Show quote history

Have you read the studies?

Helleofabore · 02/07/2025 12:11

"there is an exception to the pattern. So it’s not always true."

Yes. At some levels, regions etc, there are exceptions to the pattern.

Can you explain, in relation to the studies, why you think that those exceptions should be used to argue against single sex sports for female athletes even at those younger ages?

BettyBooper · 02/07/2025 12:11

Helleofabore · 02/07/2025 11:13

I think there is also an issue where some people will dismiss a valid analysis of data that would be readily available to anyone if the analysis of readily available data has not been peer reviewed. It would be fine except that the knowledge has been understood for since children have competed against each other.

Just like this false perspective that the only reason for sports to be segregated by sex is that the men didn’t want to be beaten by women or because one truly exception woman athlete won a race once (but not the record and not won again) or whatever fallacious argument is put forward. No. There has not been a significant genetic change in female bodies. It is just that somehow some academics and campaigners have convinced people that there is no difference between male and female athletes so why do we either not allow some male people access or just abolish sex categories in sport.

Having seen the poor quality levels of some peer reviewed papers recently, I will take a not peer reviewed and relatively straight forward analysis that I can easily sense check myself over some peer reviewed data reviews that I have seen recently.

I think it is beginning to feel like wading through sludge with some people’s ideals prioritised above facts and knowledge that has been around for decades and decades, that now has had to be proven yet again to counter misinformation that has seeped deeply into our sports policies. It is like we are rediscovering the wheel. And it is the same wheel as two decades ago but people forgot about it.

Absolutely.

Having to prove the absolutely bloody obvious through peer reviewed studies is ridiculous.

As @TheOtherRaven said earlier, the grown ups need to take control, have the difficult conversations and put in effective boundaries.

Even if there was no peer reviewed evidence of differences between boys and girls at that age, if you are holding a single sex event it should be single sex.

Telling children that you can change sex is a lie and is abuse.