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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gems from the Trans Legal Project response to EHRC consultation

350 replies

MyAmpleSheep · 22/06/2025 16:55

The Trans Legal Project's response to the open EHRC consultation is available here:
https://www.translegalproject.org/blog-1

I was going to write a more detailed critique of it, but realized that working through what seem to me to be all of the legal errors contained in it would about a weeks's work.

If this is tldr for you, then don't worry - you have nothing to fear from this organisation's response.

Here are some gems though (TLP text in bold, my comments underneath.)

Use of the term biological sex is confusing.
Uh, no, no it isn't.

What happens if the individual refuses to confirm their birth sex?
Then you don't have to let them in; same as if they refuse to tell you their name or age, if those are relevant and required to provide the service.

What happens if an individual does not know their birth sex (e.g. they are intersex)?
People with DSD's know their biological sex, even if they later turn out to be mistaken. An honest mistake as to one's biological sex is exculpatory for using the wrong service. If any person is not sure, then they can take the trouble to find out.

How does a service provider determine the individual has answered objectively falsely if the individual has made a full medical and legal transition?
There's no such thing as a "full" medical transition, but if someone lies about their biological sex then they're just lying liars who lie. Just like someone who lies about their age, or other relevant condition of entry. Just because some people are lying liars, it doesn't invalidate the idea of responsibly confirming that your service is being used by the correct people.

What about trans people who “pass”? Based on this example those trans people who “pass” are permitted to use single-sex services
No, they're really not. If a "passing" trans person sneaks into a service for someone not of their biological sex, they're lying liars who lie, and shouldn't be there. No further consequences flow. See my previous point.

Following FWS, anyone who experiences sexual attraction is now bisexual.
This is too stupid to comment on further.

There needs to be a new example showing that trans women who breastfeed are protected by the pregnancy and maternity protections on the basis of case law.
Trans women can't breastfeed in the correct sense of the term.

First, a women’s group can choose to admit cisgender and transgender women. It is not direct sex discrimination as individuals of both legal sexes are admitted.
It is direct sex discrimination. A group that allows in all white people and only black people who shave their heads is still directly discriminating on the grounds of race, even though some black people are admitted. Similarly, a single token Irish person in your service is not a failsafe talisman to prove you're incapable of unlawful discrimination against Irish people (nationality).

Third, although single legal sex women’s organisations are possible in law, they are impossible in practice. The reason is that if the association does not check the birth sex of everyone who joins, they risk allowing a trans woman to join and losing the protection of the single-characteristic exception.
No, they're really not impossible in practice. If an organization confirms prior to membership with an applicant that their biological sex is female, and takes reasonable steps to confirm this, then its protection against a claim for unlawful discrimination is not diminished by the fraudulent membership of lying people who lie.

There should also be an example that it is unlawful when a single-sex women’s association tries to restrict membership to only same-sex attracted people as only single-sex characteristic associations are allowed. There seems to be a belief that lesbian only associations are lawful under the EA 2010; they are not.
Explicitly, associations for members who share more than one protected characteristic are permitted. That someone in authority could write that lesbian-only associations are unlawful under the EA2010 is quite ... surprising.

Many trans men take testosterone and pound for pound are as strong as cisgender men. Concerns about the safety of trans men taking part are misfounded and transphobic.
If a sporting body is unworried about the safety of women entering men's sport, they can permit them to do so, and it would be called a mixed category. Nobody is suggesting that's unlawful.

Trans women who play women’s sport these days tend to have to meet strict eligibility requirements. They are unlikely to have a significant advantage. If they do, it will be almost impossible to prove they have the advantage because they are trans.
They have a significant advantage not because they are trans but because they are men.

A domestic violence support group set up separately for men and women under sched. 3 para. 26(2). is being setup on the basis of bio-segregation. But trans men and women would not be able to attend the group for their lived sex due to the operation of the law and it would be completely inappropriate in practice for them to attend the group matching their birth sex. Indeed, if they were permitted to attend groups matching their birth sex the rational for separate sex groups would be undermined and para. 26 would not apply. As a result, trans people would be completely excluded from the service. Completely excluding trans people from the service would not be proportionate so para. 26 could not apply.

Completely excluding trans people from a service could absolutely be proportionate, if to include them in the service provided for either sex would make that service insufficiently effective, and providing a separate service for trans people is impractical (such as insufficient numbers for a group service.) For the same reason that a women's refuge service is not also obliged to provide a parallel men's refuge service. Schedule 3 para 28 explicitly permits a service provider to discriminate against gender-reassigned people in the context of single- and seperate-sex services, if a proportionate means to a legitimate purpose.

Trans women have been placed in women’s hospitals wards for over 50 years without issue. Further, every year thousands of cisgender men are placed in women’s wards due to pressure on the NHS. As a result, excluding all trans women from a women’s ward is not proportionate and the sched. 3 para. 27 exception cannot be used.
Excluding all "trans women" from a women's ward is explicit in the meaning of a women's ward. Historical failure correctly to place patients in single-sex wards doesn't excuse the practice.

The example should explain that a bio-segregated hospital ward is unlawful and instead a trans inclusive women’s ward should be operated instead.
I make no further comment on the claim that a single-sex ward is illegal.

. Gyms, changing rooms and hospital wards are not examples where a bio-segregated service is lawful.
Again, no further comment from me on the proposition that single-sex changing rooms are illegal.

First, this example stereotypes all Muslim women as being hostile to trans women and as such is racist. There are many varied Muslim communities, only some of which have transphobic views.
Objecting to a male person in a female changing room is not demonstrating hostility. To suggest that "only some" Muslim communities have transphobic views appears to be engaging in the same racism the author imagines in the EHRC text.

Imagine a trans man who has fully transitioned and is every inch a man.
Except the inches that count, eh? Nudge nudge, wink wink...

There's a lot more on the single-sex services section which mostly consists of repeating the same points (not unreasonably, given the way the consultation is structured) but I don't feel like typing out the comments again and again, and this post is already too long.

As I said, I don't think we have too much to worry about from this organisation's submission.

Trans Legal Project | Blog

Trans Legal Project | Blog

https://www.translegalproject.org/blog-1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
Cornishpotato · 23/06/2025 19:15

I'm a toilet police.

Cornishpotato · 23/06/2025 19:16

Just thought I'd mention that as apparently there's non and I'm right here.

Cornishpotato · 23/06/2025 19:17

And if there are no toilet police how are all these women being mistaken for men by the toilet police?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/06/2025 19:19

PlanetJanette · 23/06/2025 18:54

But you’ve inadvertently conceded the point. The fact that a service is provided on a mixed sex basis does not mean that every single man or every single woman is permitted to join.

Other criteria can apply that limit some men and some women from joining, provided that the criteria does not exclude based on a protected characteristic (such as political party membership, or gender identity).

And that means any such criteria must applied equally to both sexes, and must not directly or indirectly discriminate against one sex.

"Woman gender" fails on both counts.

WithSilverBells · 23/06/2025 19:20

WithSilverBells · 23/06/2025 19:08

That is particularly the case when someone is exercising their rights to express a protected belief that the word women includes trans women. We are fans of protected beliefs around here right?

I'm not sure that is a protected belief tbh. Has it been tested in the courts? Has someone defined what a transwoman is?

@PlanetJanette Tagging you, in case you miss it

potpourree · 23/06/2025 19:22

GallantKumquat · 22/06/2025 21:32

I'd point out that what the translegalproject is saying is that before the supreme court ruling, single sex services and spaces were already defunct. The following reasoning illustrates that.

"Third, although single legal sex women’s organisations are possible in law, they are impossible in practice. The reason is that if the association does not check the birth sex of everyone who joins, they risk allowing a trans woman to join and losing the protection of the single-characteristic exception."

If the SC had ruled in the opposite way, it would still be impossible to have a single 'gender' space, because it's illegal to ask someone for a GRC. So obviously, some people not technically women (from a GRA perspective) would have joined, therefor all men must be allowed. The same could be said even if the criteria was saying "I identify as a non-man." As clearly that can't be ensured since it's not an immutable characteristic and therefore could change between asking the person at the door and when they stepped into the venue.

This is a totally unreasonable position that can't possibly be acceptable to the voting public, probably by margins of 80%+. Presumably translegalproject would claim that that not all of their arguments make so strong a case. But then the question becomes: which ones lend themselves to a reasonable state of affairs (assuming, again, even if SC had found for Scotland rather than WFS), and which abolish sex, or even 'gender', as an enforceable, legally valid, in practice, category? In fact this lies at the heart of the SC judgement and reasoning -- anything other than biological woman/man, renders all the sex based law in the EA incoherent.

Sorry I've not read the full thread yet, but this is a really clear and important point.

How were they intending on "policing" or "enforcing" the single-gender (and therefore mixed sex) spaces that they thought existed in law?

Obviously the point that we have tons of laws that manage to exist without 100% enforcement is still very true, but even if they thought these spaces required strict checks, what was their solution for checking everyone's gender? I'd love to see the "woman - checklist" they have in mind!

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/06/2025 19:26

PlanetJanette · 23/06/2025 18:51

It’s like you haven’t read a single thing.

Of course it’s relevant if service providers take the option open to them to provide services and facilities based on gender rather than biological sex.

Only if they can do so without discriminating based on sex.

Which given that genderist ideas of "man" and "woman" require discrimination based on charcteristics to be found in more of one sex than the other to create the "cis" against which the "trans" can be defined, I think will prove to be impossible in practice while still maintaining the type of service or space gender fantasists want to have.

Note to the trigger happy : the term "gender fantasists" above refers to people of any gender identity who have a fantasy that this type of provision is achievable within the law, not to transgender people.

PlanetJanette · 23/06/2025 19:28

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 23/06/2025 17:07

If a service is described as for women, but they use that term to include trans women and cis women, then the equality act doesn't regulate that.

Yes it does. The words "sex", "woman" and "man" do not mean whatever you want them to mean. You might as well argue that "woman" includes mares and ewes. It doesn't.

Judgment

The Supreme Court unanimously allows the appeal. It holds that the terms “man”, “woman” and “sex” in the EA 2010 refer to biological sex.

"As a matter of ordinary language, the provisions relating to sex discrimination can only be interpreted as referring to biological sex"

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2024-0042#judgment-details

Yes. For the purposes of the Equality Act women means biological women. But the purpose of the Equality Act is not to regulate signs and labels.

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 23/06/2025 19:28

Cornishpotato · 23/06/2025 19:15

I'm a toilet police.

I wonder if LGBA and WRN are recruiting Toilet Police? Maybe Shower Sheriffs too?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5354705-house-of-commons-apologises-after-rmw-permitted-to-use-ladies-loos

Badges?? Badgers??

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/06/2025 19:30

PlanetJanette · 23/06/2025 18:51

It’s like you haven’t read a single thing.

Of course it’s relevant if service providers take the option open to them to provide services and facilities based on gender rather than biological sex.

Public providers must provide either single sex, or else they must provide compliant unisex facilities. What is it that you cannot understand?

MyAmpleSheep · 23/06/2025 19:30

EuclidianGeometryFan · 23/06/2025 16:09

This gets to the heart of the matter.

@PlanetJanette is technically correct, in that you can set up e.g. a sewing club or disco night for 'only people who don't have a male gender identity', or 'only people who do have a female gender identity'.
But you would have to be very careful as to how you a) advertised it and b) policed entry.

But it is theoretical, without many real-world applications, given that things like toilet provision is covered by other legislation and regulation which means that for single-sex provision transwomen are excluded.

In the real world, it boils down to whether things like board places, prizes, rape crisis centres, hospital wards, prisons, changing rooms, etc. are:

a) covered by other legislation or regulation
b) described as for 'women'
c) claiming to operate the single-sex exemption

If any of the above apply, I would interpret this as meaning the transwomen are excluded.

is technically correct, in that you can set up e.g. a sewing club or disco night for 'only people who don't have a male gender identity', or 'only people who do have a female gender identity'.

No - with respect (to both of you) - they are not correct technically or otherwise, and you absolutely can't. You 100% cannot use "female gender identity" at all, in deciding who to admit to a club or a disco.

This is because "female gender identity" is shorthand for something that cuts across two protected characteristics - sex, and gender reassignment. You can't pick-and-mix - these people from the cohort with that protected characteristic, and these other people from the cohort with a different protected characteristic. It's 100% unlawful discrimination to do so.

OP posts:
SternJoyousBee · 23/06/2025 19:39

The bullshit is strong on this thread.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/06/2025 19:40

PlanetJanette · 23/06/2025 15:45

You didn't listen terribly carefully because the word unisex wasn't mentioned once in the judgment.

'Mixed Sex' was the term of reference......which in application means unisex ( just semantics).....and these mixed sex facilities need to be compliant.

https://supremecourt.uk/uploads/uksc_2024_0042_judgment_aea6c48cee.pdf

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/06/2025 19:42

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/06/2025 16:32

The point is that your 'gender identity' does not matter when it comes to facilities which are designated by sex - which is basically all facilities ( Unisex included). It does not matter now, and it will not matter then. It may well be meaningful for you personally......but when it comes to public facilities it is irrelevant how you feel.

Edited

Deleted, duplicate

Cornishpotato · 23/06/2025 19:43

The "enforcement" was through bogus policies that claimed everyone could chose the services they felt most comfortable with, which in practice meant men's comfort, women's silent discomfort.

And through relentless bullying and intimidation of any organisation that tried to use the exemptions properly.

And through men simply doing what they wanted leaving women fearful and upset at the encroachment and intimidating behaviour.

Plus the outrage that was public sector funding requirements that withheld money if men weren't given the choice of their own comfort at all times.

This has swung wildly to the complete opposite where we are now told the problem is women confronting women that we think are men.

As if they actually care about that. Obviously we know they don't care at all about women as they clearly demonstrated with their behaviour.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/06/2025 19:45

PlanetJanette · 23/06/2025 19:28

Yes. For the purposes of the Equality Act women means biological women. But the purpose of the Equality Act is not to regulate signs and labels.

The judges specifically talked about labelling and signage.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/06/2025 19:47

PlanetJanette · 23/06/2025 18:45

I can’t see how.

You acknowledge there is no legal obligation for pub toilets to be single sex. So it’s not the fact of having a space that includes trans women that would give rise to a cause of action. It then becomes about whether a venue can describe a space as being for women but include people that some regard as not being women. I can’t really see on what basis that would arise. Venues can call their facilities whatever they like (see above the example of ‘does’ and ‘stags’). The equality act doesn’t regulate how words are used in common parlance.

Some pubs and a couple of single occupancy facilities/rooms with integral basins...which can be used by anyone. This is compliant.

Many may just have a couple, but label one as being for men and one for women.

Bannedontherun · 23/06/2025 19:47

@PlanetJanette Are you legally qualified?

PlanetJanette · 23/06/2025 19:49

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/06/2025 19:19

And that means any such criteria must applied equally to both sexes, and must not directly or indirectly discriminate against one sex.

"Woman gender" fails on both counts.

No it doesn’t.

Cornishpotato · 23/06/2025 19:50

SternJoyousBee · 23/06/2025 19:39

The bullshit is strong on this thread.

It's the stinking badgers.

SionnachRuadh · 23/06/2025 19:51

Jesus, it's a bit like being stuck in a lift with an SWP member while they confidently explain something to you that's the opposite of reality.

I have not seen anything yet from Janette to persuade me that she's not starting with a desired outcome (men with special identities being able to access places where women are undressed) and working back from there to create a rationale that sounds vaguely legal.

Thing is, the trans movement's Humptydumptyism isn't having a great time of it in the courts.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/06/2025 19:53

PlanetJanette · 23/06/2025 18:45

I can’t see how.

You acknowledge there is no legal obligation for pub toilets to be single sex. So it’s not the fact of having a space that includes trans women that would give rise to a cause of action. It then becomes about whether a venue can describe a space as being for women but include people that some regard as not being women. I can’t really see on what basis that would arise. Venues can call their facilities whatever they like (see above the example of ‘does’ and ‘stags’). The equality act doesn’t regulate how words are used in common parlance.

No! If a venue labels a facility as specifically being for 'women', then that is what it must mean. A woman is defined by biological sex.

The judgment specifically stated that the commonly understood definition of 'Sex' was the basis for law as it applies to single sex facilities and services. And this is what will be conveyed in the guidance for those organisations and businesses that are still uncertain.

MyAmpleSheep · 23/06/2025 19:55

Here it is in a good old Mumsnet diagram (when it passes screening...)

People with female gender identity combine (differently) two distinct protected characteristics.

When considering a claim of unlawful discrimination, the correct comparator is someone the some other than the characteristic along the lines of which discrimination is alleged.

In this diagram "female gender identity people" are in the blue squares. Someone in square B who is denied admission to the knitting circle will argue that the correct comparator for GR discrimination is someone in A who is admitted. And for sex discrimination the correct comparator is D, who is also admitted. They can sue for unlawful discrimination on both grounds.

Gems from the Trans Legal Project response to EHRC consultation
OP posts:
Shortshriftandlethal · 23/06/2025 19:56

PlanetJanette · 23/06/2025 18:45

I can’t see how.

You acknowledge there is no legal obligation for pub toilets to be single sex. So it’s not the fact of having a space that includes trans women that would give rise to a cause of action. It then becomes about whether a venue can describe a space as being for women but include people that some regard as not being women. I can’t really see on what basis that would arise. Venues can call their facilities whatever they like (see above the example of ‘does’ and ‘stags’). The equality act doesn’t regulate how words are used in common parlance.

Why don't you stop wasting your time going round in circles of denial, and go and look at the judgement in full. It may even still be available as a live artefact.

Brainworm · 23/06/2025 19:59

SionnachRuadh · 23/06/2025 19:51

Jesus, it's a bit like being stuck in a lift with an SWP member while they confidently explain something to you that's the opposite of reality.

I have not seen anything yet from Janette to persuade me that she's not starting with a desired outcome (men with special identities being able to access places where women are undressed) and working back from there to create a rationale that sounds vaguely legal.

Thing is, the trans movement's Humptydumptyism isn't having a great time of it in the courts.

It’s something to behold. It’s from the same school as those claiming the SC ruling is unclear. They fail to see that it’s their fixed mindset and unwillingness to engage in what is being presented that prevents THEM from understanding- not the rest of the world!