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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gems from the Trans Legal Project response to EHRC consultation

350 replies

MyAmpleSheep · 22/06/2025 16:55

The Trans Legal Project's response to the open EHRC consultation is available here:
https://www.translegalproject.org/blog-1

I was going to write a more detailed critique of it, but realized that working through what seem to me to be all of the legal errors contained in it would about a weeks's work.

If this is tldr for you, then don't worry - you have nothing to fear from this organisation's response.

Here are some gems though (TLP text in bold, my comments underneath.)

Use of the term biological sex is confusing.
Uh, no, no it isn't.

What happens if the individual refuses to confirm their birth sex?
Then you don't have to let them in; same as if they refuse to tell you their name or age, if those are relevant and required to provide the service.

What happens if an individual does not know their birth sex (e.g. they are intersex)?
People with DSD's know their biological sex, even if they later turn out to be mistaken. An honest mistake as to one's biological sex is exculpatory for using the wrong service. If any person is not sure, then they can take the trouble to find out.

How does a service provider determine the individual has answered objectively falsely if the individual has made a full medical and legal transition?
There's no such thing as a "full" medical transition, but if someone lies about their biological sex then they're just lying liars who lie. Just like someone who lies about their age, or other relevant condition of entry. Just because some people are lying liars, it doesn't invalidate the idea of responsibly confirming that your service is being used by the correct people.

What about trans people who “pass”? Based on this example those trans people who “pass” are permitted to use single-sex services
No, they're really not. If a "passing" trans person sneaks into a service for someone not of their biological sex, they're lying liars who lie, and shouldn't be there. No further consequences flow. See my previous point.

Following FWS, anyone who experiences sexual attraction is now bisexual.
This is too stupid to comment on further.

There needs to be a new example showing that trans women who breastfeed are protected by the pregnancy and maternity protections on the basis of case law.
Trans women can't breastfeed in the correct sense of the term.

First, a women’s group can choose to admit cisgender and transgender women. It is not direct sex discrimination as individuals of both legal sexes are admitted.
It is direct sex discrimination. A group that allows in all white people and only black people who shave their heads is still directly discriminating on the grounds of race, even though some black people are admitted. Similarly, a single token Irish person in your service is not a failsafe talisman to prove you're incapable of unlawful discrimination against Irish people (nationality).

Third, although single legal sex women’s organisations are possible in law, they are impossible in practice. The reason is that if the association does not check the birth sex of everyone who joins, they risk allowing a trans woman to join and losing the protection of the single-characteristic exception.
No, they're really not impossible in practice. If an organization confirms prior to membership with an applicant that their biological sex is female, and takes reasonable steps to confirm this, then its protection against a claim for unlawful discrimination is not diminished by the fraudulent membership of lying people who lie.

There should also be an example that it is unlawful when a single-sex women’s association tries to restrict membership to only same-sex attracted people as only single-sex characteristic associations are allowed. There seems to be a belief that lesbian only associations are lawful under the EA 2010; they are not.
Explicitly, associations for members who share more than one protected characteristic are permitted. That someone in authority could write that lesbian-only associations are unlawful under the EA2010 is quite ... surprising.

Many trans men take testosterone and pound for pound are as strong as cisgender men. Concerns about the safety of trans men taking part are misfounded and transphobic.
If a sporting body is unworried about the safety of women entering men's sport, they can permit them to do so, and it would be called a mixed category. Nobody is suggesting that's unlawful.

Trans women who play women’s sport these days tend to have to meet strict eligibility requirements. They are unlikely to have a significant advantage. If they do, it will be almost impossible to prove they have the advantage because they are trans.
They have a significant advantage not because they are trans but because they are men.

A domestic violence support group set up separately for men and women under sched. 3 para. 26(2). is being setup on the basis of bio-segregation. But trans men and women would not be able to attend the group for their lived sex due to the operation of the law and it would be completely inappropriate in practice for them to attend the group matching their birth sex. Indeed, if they were permitted to attend groups matching their birth sex the rational for separate sex groups would be undermined and para. 26 would not apply. As a result, trans people would be completely excluded from the service. Completely excluding trans people from the service would not be proportionate so para. 26 could not apply.

Completely excluding trans people from a service could absolutely be proportionate, if to include them in the service provided for either sex would make that service insufficiently effective, and providing a separate service for trans people is impractical (such as insufficient numbers for a group service.) For the same reason that a women's refuge service is not also obliged to provide a parallel men's refuge service. Schedule 3 para 28 explicitly permits a service provider to discriminate against gender-reassigned people in the context of single- and seperate-sex services, if a proportionate means to a legitimate purpose.

Trans women have been placed in women’s hospitals wards for over 50 years without issue. Further, every year thousands of cisgender men are placed in women’s wards due to pressure on the NHS. As a result, excluding all trans women from a women’s ward is not proportionate and the sched. 3 para. 27 exception cannot be used.
Excluding all "trans women" from a women's ward is explicit in the meaning of a women's ward. Historical failure correctly to place patients in single-sex wards doesn't excuse the practice.

The example should explain that a bio-segregated hospital ward is unlawful and instead a trans inclusive women’s ward should be operated instead.
I make no further comment on the claim that a single-sex ward is illegal.

. Gyms, changing rooms and hospital wards are not examples where a bio-segregated service is lawful.
Again, no further comment from me on the proposition that single-sex changing rooms are illegal.

First, this example stereotypes all Muslim women as being hostile to trans women and as such is racist. There are many varied Muslim communities, only some of which have transphobic views.
Objecting to a male person in a female changing room is not demonstrating hostility. To suggest that "only some" Muslim communities have transphobic views appears to be engaging in the same racism the author imagines in the EHRC text.

Imagine a trans man who has fully transitioned and is every inch a man.
Except the inches that count, eh? Nudge nudge, wink wink...

There's a lot more on the single-sex services section which mostly consists of repeating the same points (not unreasonably, given the way the consultation is structured) but I don't feel like typing out the comments again and again, and this post is already too long.

As I said, I don't think we have too much to worry about from this organisation's submission.

Trans Legal Project | Blog

Trans Legal Project | Blog

https://www.translegalproject.org/blog-1

OP posts:
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16
POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 24/06/2025 14:48

PlanetJanette · 24/06/2025 11:13

I don't agree, but even if you were right, then you are really just now arguing about how a venue or service provider describes things.

So even if you were correct that if the sign on the door says 'women', that must mean only biological women, the way that venues can operate trans inclusive facilities or services, if they choose to, is by being clear that they are open to women based on gender identity, rather than women based on biological sex.

"you are really just now arguing about how a venue or service provider describes things."

Yes - because it is very important how a venue or service provider "describes things", as so many people keep telling you, repeatedly, with evidence by citing UK legislation and legal opinion.

You really have to come up with something better than, "I don't like the world the way that it is so here is my fantasy of how things ought to be, which means that it is true".

This is not a healthy mindset and you are destined to be disappointed. I also suspect that when women here get thoroughly fed up of wasting their time trying to talk some sense into you and give up that you will think that you have won the argument. You won't. You will just have exhausted our patience.

"So even if you were correct that if the sign on the door says 'women', that must mean only biological women,"

She is correct. That interpretation is consistent with the Supreme Court ruling, which you should read in full. It covers the issue of Legislation being based on the understanding of the meanings of words at the time that it is passed.

Nobody but nobody interpreted "woman" to mean anything other than "biological female" when the Workplace Regulations were passed in 1992. You can fantasise your heart out that a court would determine something different but it won't.

If you have so much confidence in your own opinion vs the opinions of actual lawyers in the UK who specialise and are experts in this stuff, go take a case against a service provider who is not using the word "woman" the way you would like.

"the way that venues can operate trans inclusive facilities or services, if they choose to, is by being clear that they are open to women based on gender identity, rather than women based on biological sex."

Actual UK lawyer who specialises and is an expert in this area of law thinks differently and even mentions your favourite buzz words: "gender identity".

Are "trans inclusive" policies lawful?
13 June 2025

Conclusion

The best way for a service provider or employer to avoid liability for unlawful discrimination is to offer separate-sex changing, washing, and sanitary facilities provided on the basis of biological sex, supplemented, where reasonably possible, with the option of individual unisex facilities provided on a single use basis. Trans inclusive policies which amount to nothing more than the provision of individualised unisex facilities are perfectly lawful. Trans inclusive policies which attempt to include some biological men and exclude others on the basis of their gender identity amount to unlawful discrimination against the men excluded. Trans inclusive policies which place female service users at a detriment because of sex amount to unlawful discrimination against the women included. None of this discrimination is covered by the Schedule 3 exceptions because a trans inclusive service is not a single or separate sex service.

https://knowingius.org/p/are-trans-inclusive-policies-lawful

Are "trans inclusive" policies lawful?

In the aftermath of the Supreme Court decision in For Women Scotland v The Scottish Ministers [2025] UKSC 16 (FWS), there has been a raging debate about whether it is lawful for employers or service providers to provide trans inclusive facilities for c...

https://knowingius.org/p/are-trans-inclusive-policies-lawful

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 24/06/2025 14:50

Shortshriftandlethal · 24/06/2025 13:24

"Once you put a sign on the door that the toilet is male or female, then a person of that sex could “reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex”.

Signs that say “male” or “female”, “men” or “women”, or use symbols meaning men and women communicate that this is a single-sex service, lawful under the Equality Act, and thus provided on the basis of biological sex. Individuals of the opposite sex should respect those rules, which lawfully exclude them"

Employers and service providers that do not provide single-sex toilets or that provide them in an ambiguous way (suggesting they can be used based on gender identity) are exposing themselves tothe risk of legal action.

While the Supreme Court did not expressly address the question of the Workplace Health and Safety Regulations, the same rationale would clearly apply, and therefore where the regulations refer to men and women, this is a reference to biological sex.

https://sex-matters.org/posts/single-sex-services/the-truth-about-toilets/#:~:text=Signs%20that%20say%20“male”%20or,rules%2C%20which%20lawfully%20exclude%20them.

Thank you ❤️

MarieDeGournay · 24/06/2025 15:21

MarieDeGournay · Today 11:28
PlanetJanette So even if you were correct that if the sign on the door says 'women', that must mean only biological women, the way that venues can operate trans inclusive facilities or services, if they choose to, is by being clear that they are open to women based on gender identity, rather than women based on biological sex.
Surely the way that venues can operate trans inclusive facilities or services, if they choose to, is simply by providing additional facilities or services that are not designated as 'women's' or 'men's', if they choose to?
To take the example of toilets: a women's toilet, reserved for biological women; a men's toilet, reserved for biological men; a third accessible toilet, reserved for people with disabilities; a fourth, a building-regs-compliant 'universal' toilet, open to anybody, of either sex, however they identify.
That seems straightforward enough - what's gender got to do with it?
[there's your Tina Turner earworm of the day, folks]

PlanetJanette · Today 11:47
Yes. That would be one approach venues would be legally free to take.
As would the approach I've set out.

Super. We are in agreement:
'a women's toilet, reserved for biological women; a men's toilet, reserved for biological men; a third accessible toilet, reserved for people with disabilities; a fourth, a building-regs-compliant 'universal' toilet, open to anybody, of either sex, however they identify.'

is 'one approach venues would be legally free to take', and, usefully, it is the approach that most venues already take, so we could just apply Occam's Razor and adopt the 'biological women's/biological men's/people with disabilities' reserved service or facility, plus a universal service or facility open to anyone' model.

This approach has the advantage of clarity as biological sex is recognised in law, whereas gender does not even have an agreed definition.
It also has the advantage of already being in existence in the configuration of toilet provision in most old buildings, and all new buildings with sufficient space, and so will minimise unnecessary expense and disruption.

I commend it to the house.... sorry, I got carried away there😁

JanesLittleGirl · 24/06/2025 18:42

PlanetJanette · 24/06/2025 10:55

You say this law applies to 'employers and service providers'.

You are just wrong. It does apply to employers (but the meaning has not been interpreted by the Supreme Court), but it does not apply to service providers unless caught by new provisions of building regulations.

I agree that the meaning of the Workplace Regulations hasn't been been interpreted by the Supreme Court but if you believe that the claim that the regulations include certificated sex will survive contact with an Employment Tribunal then I have a bridge that you might be interested in.

WRT service providers, the problem with your elegantly constructed solution is that it falls foul of the sanitary facilities specifications required by licencing authorities before a premises licence can be granted, renewed or retained. These requirements specify separate facilities for males and females along with additional facilities for disabled people. A persistent failure to conform to the licencing conditions will lead to the licence being lost. Again, good luck with an appeal that single gender provision meets the requirement that there must be separate provision for males and females.

Cornishpotato · 24/06/2025 18:51

PlanetJanette · 24/06/2025 10:30

I'm not sure how many more ways I can explain to you that I am not talking about a single sex facility under the Equality Act. Where a venue adopted the approach I am talking about, the single sex exemption would not apply and would not be relevant.

Nothing in the Supreme Court judgment indicates that if you label your toilets as 'women' or 'ladies' or 'hens' or anything else, that that then needs to adhere to a specific definition. It is the reliance on the single sex exemption that gives rise to the need to limit access based on biological sex, not the signs that are used on toilets.

We're not bovvered about the law here guv, just 'avin a party.

EuclidianGeometryFan · 24/06/2025 18:57

potpourree · 23/06/2025 20:54

Look, i know you'll all think I'm bonkers but on this and other threads I'm genuinely grateful to PlanetJanette for at least trying to communicate, clearly, what their view is.

This almost never happens and any kind of logical train of thought that "the other side" might be ruminating on tends to remain a mystery. At least if it's set out clearly, with an attempt to explain - however correct or not it is factually - we can see where any misunderstanding or talking at odds is happening.

Right I'll go back to catching up with the thread now and see if I still think this at the end Grin

Yes, thank you @PlanetJanette .
Not sure if you are correct, but all credit to you for persisting in explaining your thinking.

EuclidianGeometryFan · 24/06/2025 19:21

drspouse · 24/06/2025 13:10

The problem with claiming "you can discriminate on the grounds of gender identity because it isn't a PC" is that a) gender identity is not legally defined and b) it's SO CLOSE to gender reassignment:
Billy is a man who says his gender identity is that of a woman. He is allowed to go to the women's book club.
Fred is a man who has no gender identity. He claims he's been discriminated against on the grounds of gender reassignment because Billy can go to the women's book group and he can't.
but but but GI isn't a PC so Fred hasn't been discriminated against on the grounds of not having the PC of gender reassignment.
However, since Billy is/is proposing to undergo "reassignment" while Fred isn't/is not proposing, it's irrelevant whether Billy and Fred share or don't share GI.
Everyone thinks Billy has the PC of GR (even if Billy just says he's a woman and has decided to do nothing about it) and everyone thinks Fred doesn't.
So Fred has been discriminated against on the grounds of a perceived PC.

It would be the same as saying "you can come to this book group if you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster" when that's basically saying "you can come to this book group if you are an atheist" because although belief in the FSM is not WORIADS everyone knows (or even just thinks) it's shorthand for "not believing in sky fairies".
If you JUST had a book group for atheists you could probably get away with it (especially if you said we want to discuss theology books without the baggage of a belief in God), but if you said "all women, and atheist men" you couldn't. The other men are being discriminated against on the grounds of belief.

I guess the question of whether Gender Identity does in practice mean something different to Gender Reassignment is another thing that will need to be tested in court.

How many people are there who claim to have a gender identity different to their sex, and specifically DON'T claim to have gender reassignment as a PC?
Not many I would guess. I suspect just about any transwoman you ask will say that they DO have the PC of gender reassignment.

EuclidianGeometryFan · 24/06/2025 19:24

MyAmpleSheep · 23/06/2025 19:30

is technically correct, in that you can set up e.g. a sewing club or disco night for 'only people who don't have a male gender identity', or 'only people who do have a female gender identity'.

No - with respect (to both of you) - they are not correct technically or otherwise, and you absolutely can't. You 100% cannot use "female gender identity" at all, in deciding who to admit to a club or a disco.

This is because "female gender identity" is shorthand for something that cuts across two protected characteristics - sex, and gender reassignment. You can't pick-and-mix - these people from the cohort with that protected characteristic, and these other people from the cohort with a different protected characteristic. It's 100% unlawful discrimination to do so.

Edited

You are correct @MyAmpleSheep only if Gender Identity is assumed to be the same thing in law as Gender Reassignment.
Which it probably is - but it has not been tested yet.

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 24/06/2025 19:42

EuclidianGeometryFan · 24/06/2025 19:21

I guess the question of whether Gender Identity does in practice mean something different to Gender Reassignment is another thing that will need to be tested in court.

How many people are there who claim to have a gender identity different to their sex, and specifically DON'T claim to have gender reassignment as a PC?
Not many I would guess. I suspect just about any transwoman you ask will say that they DO have the PC of gender reassignment.

"How many people are there who claim to have a gender identity different to their sex, and specifically DON'T claim to have gender reassignment as a PC?"

The very few I have come across are butch lesbians who say that they have gender dysphoria but "manage it".

The very last place they would want to be, for their own safety and sanity, is in a club with people who do claim the PC of Gender Reassignment.

shuggles · 24/06/2025 20:20

RareGoalsVerge · 23/06/2025 08:48

There's a wide variety. It depends how much testosterone they take, and given the long term destruction of health that T causes to a female body, many don't. A lot look like butch lesbians. A lot look like women wearing a little beard. A few grow a big bushy beard and go a bit overboard on the body-building.

Like this?

https://www.google.com/imgres?q=life%20of%20brian%20women%20scene%20beard&imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2F736x%2Fde%2F96%2F78%2Fde96789de033fd4e4d8d7e7c13fe8634.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fpin%2F754704850025543652%2F&docid=fP_Xp-pzDYlNoM&tbnid=cePvxTjBtdQSMM&vet=12ahUKEwjCm52044qOAxUaVEEAHeG7A8cQM3oECBYQAA..i&w=480&h=274&hcb=2&ved=2ahUKEwjCm52044qOAxUaVEEAHeG7A8cQM3oECBYQAA

Datun · 24/06/2025 21:16

WithSilverBells · 24/06/2025 13:59

Self ID Mixed Sex Femme Genderclub is likely to have a practical problem though. Initially it will have a healthy population of women, including handmaids, with the femme GI. However, it is inevitable that the men with a very strong sexual fetish (eg some cross dressers, transbians, AGPs, voyeurs, exhibitionists, sissys) will simply self-declare a femme GI to get in. After a few weeks of that, I imagine a lot of the handmaids will be washing their hair as an alternative to Genderclub.
Men will destroy Femme Genderclub.

I agree it will wither and die.

Self ID Mixed Sex Femme Genderclub is likely to have a practical problem though. Initially it will have a healthy population of women, including handmaids, with the femme GI.

I'm wondering if I'm not getting it?

You have planets space, let's call it femme loo (because I believe it IS all about toilets for that poster), populated by transwomen and women who claim a gender identity.

i understand we're talking legalities and discrimination, but on a personsal level I'm not sure I'd care, as long as my normal, men-free loo was available alongside.

They can knock themselves out. It's just like a unisex loo (additional to sex specific).

WithSilverBells · 24/06/2025 22:31

Datun · 24/06/2025 21:16

I agree it will wither and die.

Self ID Mixed Sex Femme Genderclub is likely to have a practical problem though. Initially it will have a healthy population of women, including handmaids, with the femme GI.

I'm wondering if I'm not getting it?

You have planets space, let's call it femme loo (because I believe it IS all about toilets for that poster), populated by transwomen and women who claim a gender identity.

i understand we're talking legalities and discrimination, but on a personsal level I'm not sure I'd care, as long as my normal, men-free loo was available alongside.

They can knock themselves out. It's just like a unisex loo (additional to sex specific).

For me there is a distinction between Self-IDMSFGenderClub itself and the toilets within.
The Club might be allowable as an association under EqA2010 because GI is not a PC (though several PP have given excellent reasons why that might not be true).
The toilets, whether within GenderClub or at your local cinema, will be a different issue. EHRC interim update says they can be mixed sex however, it could be indirect sex discrimination against women if the only provision is mixed-sex. (I think planets wants this to be the only provision). So, for a provider to play safe, they also need single sex cubicles or unisex single person use lockable rooms. Then you have to take into account building regulations too, for new builds or changes to existing builds. A provider would also need a pretty good estimate of how many women will be happy with the mixed-sex provision vs the single sex cubicles/unisex rooms in order to plan appropriately. Even in GenderClub some women might want single-sex cubicles or unisex rooms. Also, labelling needs to be very clear or provider could fall foul of misleading a woman into thinking males would not be present.

Or, I could be wrong. I guess there will be court cases eventually, if providers break buidling regs or discriminate against women.

MyAmpleSheep · 24/06/2025 22:36

EuclidianGeometryFan · 24/06/2025 19:24

You are correct @MyAmpleSheep only if Gender Identity is assumed to be the same thing in law as Gender Reassignment.
Which it probably is - but it has not been tested yet.

I think that’s only going to work if there’s a sufficient cadre of trans identifying men who qualify as holding the PC of gender reassignment who don’t have your characteristic of female gender identity.

OP posts:
Datun · 25/06/2025 04:52

^(I think planets wants this to be the only provision).^

Oh ok. I didn't realise that. Because that definitely can't work. If the only women allowed in are those with a gender identity, there obviously has to be proper provision for the other (99 percent of) women.

MyAmpleSheep · 26/06/2025 03:25

Once again, considering who is admitted to GenderClub is unimportant from an equalities perspective. What counts is who is excluded.

If someone can give a clear definition of the door policy in terms of who is not allowed in, it can be analyzed for legality. “Anyone who doesn’t have female gender identity can’t come in” is a meaningless policy because at root it doesn’t exclude anyone; any man, be they never so masculine and butch, can say “oh yes I absolutely have a female gender identity” and it can never be disproved. It’s as meaningless as saying “FneemClub, a club for people who squarg like a fneem”.

But once, in practice, it becomes women and trans-identifying men playing women - not by explicit policy but because that’s the way it’s interpreted on the door, it becomes unlawful.

You don’t have to say “no Irish” for it to be unlawful if in practice you don’t let in Irish people.

OP posts:
DefineHappy · 26/06/2025 04:26

Isn’t the clarification of the law by the SC providing exactly what planets wants?
A) Female (natal) Single Sex Facilities
B) Male (natal) Single Sex Facilities
C) Whatever mix of “Sex” and “Gender” floats your boat? (Gender Neutral).

I’m happy with that!

Nameychangington · 26/06/2025 07:26

DefineHappy · 26/06/2025 04:26

Isn’t the clarification of the law by the SC providing exactly what planets wants?
A) Female (natal) Single Sex Facilities
B) Male (natal) Single Sex Facilities
C) Whatever mix of “Sex” and “Gender” floats your boat? (Gender Neutral).

I’m happy with that!

No, he wants 'women and men with special feelings' to be the option, not single sex plus mixed sex. And to be able to call that nonsensical option the 'female' option, to trick unsuspecting women that it's a single sex option when it isn't, and to keep out men who don't think they are women. Basically the Stonewall law unlawful provision we've had for the last 10 years or so.

TheOtherRaven · 26/06/2025 07:58

I understand that men who would like to be with non consenting women in spaces where they are undressed and vulnerable would much prefer things to go back to the way that they were.

But that ship, thank God, has sailed.

This demonstrates, repeatedly, why women as a sex class must have cast iron gatekeeping of their rights and spaces. There are too many men who do not see the point of women's rights, find them personally very inconvenient, are annoyed and baffled by women arguing back or trying to explain about their own needs and equalities, and would never permit women to have anything that removed them as a personal resource.

Brainworm · 26/06/2025 08:32

Datun · 24/06/2025 21:16

I agree it will wither and die.

Self ID Mixed Sex Femme Genderclub is likely to have a practical problem though. Initially it will have a healthy population of women, including handmaids, with the femme GI.

I'm wondering if I'm not getting it?

You have planets space, let's call it femme loo (because I believe it IS all about toilets for that poster), populated by transwomen and women who claim a gender identity.

i understand we're talking legalities and discrimination, but on a personsal level I'm not sure I'd care, as long as my normal, men-free loo was available alongside.

They can knock themselves out. It's just like a unisex loo (additional to sex specific).

Focussing on what is needed and wanted by women is the way through all of this (noting NAWALT, case in point -Planet).

So long as women and girls have access to single sex provision (where sex matters), how others’ needs are met should be determined between them and service providers.

TheOtherRaven · 26/06/2025 08:34

Indeed.

All that has changed is that this group of men are required to tolerate that women who want single sex spaces will have and use them.

Brainworm · 26/06/2025 08:53

TheOtherRaven · 26/06/2025 08:34

Indeed.

All that has changed is that this group of men are required to tolerate that women who want single sex spaces will have and use them.

What has also changed, is the context in which this requirement sits. Conversations, debates and reporting on this issue now position transwomen as male. In the past decade, this fact has been obfuscated and it has often been difficult to address the substantive issue of who should access which provision. Debate has rarely broken through the noise about the innate transphobia and misgendering arising from even questioning the appropriateness of trans identified males accessing female only services.

Datun · 26/06/2025 09:27

Conversations, debates and reporting on this issue now position transwomen as male.

Yes, that's the significant difference.

Everyone now understands what a male free space is.

I can't see planet getting a woman only space, designated for women, who don't realise that it allows some men in, however much they play jiggery-pokery with the language

MarieDeGournay · 26/06/2025 10:30

I was in a public building the other day. There was a toilet marked 'Staff Only'. Guess what? I didn't use it. Guess why? Because I'm not staff. I know I'm not staff. I might like to be staff because I might get staff discounts, but I'm not staff, and have no right to use the 'Staff Only' toilet.
So I didn't.

Not that complicated, is it?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/06/2025 09:09

Brainworm · 26/06/2025 08:53

What has also changed, is the context in which this requirement sits. Conversations, debates and reporting on this issue now position transwomen as male. In the past decade, this fact has been obfuscated and it has often been difficult to address the substantive issue of who should access which provision. Debate has rarely broken through the noise about the innate transphobia and misgendering arising from even questioning the appropriateness of trans identified males accessing female only services.

Yes this is the best aspect of it all. The candour and lack of gaslighting.

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