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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gems from the Trans Legal Project response to EHRC consultation

350 replies

MyAmpleSheep · 22/06/2025 16:55

The Trans Legal Project's response to the open EHRC consultation is available here:
https://www.translegalproject.org/blog-1

I was going to write a more detailed critique of it, but realized that working through what seem to me to be all of the legal errors contained in it would about a weeks's work.

If this is tldr for you, then don't worry - you have nothing to fear from this organisation's response.

Here are some gems though (TLP text in bold, my comments underneath.)

Use of the term biological sex is confusing.
Uh, no, no it isn't.

What happens if the individual refuses to confirm their birth sex?
Then you don't have to let them in; same as if they refuse to tell you their name or age, if those are relevant and required to provide the service.

What happens if an individual does not know their birth sex (e.g. they are intersex)?
People with DSD's know their biological sex, even if they later turn out to be mistaken. An honest mistake as to one's biological sex is exculpatory for using the wrong service. If any person is not sure, then they can take the trouble to find out.

How does a service provider determine the individual has answered objectively falsely if the individual has made a full medical and legal transition?
There's no such thing as a "full" medical transition, but if someone lies about their biological sex then they're just lying liars who lie. Just like someone who lies about their age, or other relevant condition of entry. Just because some people are lying liars, it doesn't invalidate the idea of responsibly confirming that your service is being used by the correct people.

What about trans people who “pass”? Based on this example those trans people who “pass” are permitted to use single-sex services
No, they're really not. If a "passing" trans person sneaks into a service for someone not of their biological sex, they're lying liars who lie, and shouldn't be there. No further consequences flow. See my previous point.

Following FWS, anyone who experiences sexual attraction is now bisexual.
This is too stupid to comment on further.

There needs to be a new example showing that trans women who breastfeed are protected by the pregnancy and maternity protections on the basis of case law.
Trans women can't breastfeed in the correct sense of the term.

First, a women’s group can choose to admit cisgender and transgender women. It is not direct sex discrimination as individuals of both legal sexes are admitted.
It is direct sex discrimination. A group that allows in all white people and only black people who shave their heads is still directly discriminating on the grounds of race, even though some black people are admitted. Similarly, a single token Irish person in your service is not a failsafe talisman to prove you're incapable of unlawful discrimination against Irish people (nationality).

Third, although single legal sex women’s organisations are possible in law, they are impossible in practice. The reason is that if the association does not check the birth sex of everyone who joins, they risk allowing a trans woman to join and losing the protection of the single-characteristic exception.
No, they're really not impossible in practice. If an organization confirms prior to membership with an applicant that their biological sex is female, and takes reasonable steps to confirm this, then its protection against a claim for unlawful discrimination is not diminished by the fraudulent membership of lying people who lie.

There should also be an example that it is unlawful when a single-sex women’s association tries to restrict membership to only same-sex attracted people as only single-sex characteristic associations are allowed. There seems to be a belief that lesbian only associations are lawful under the EA 2010; they are not.
Explicitly, associations for members who share more than one protected characteristic are permitted. That someone in authority could write that lesbian-only associations are unlawful under the EA2010 is quite ... surprising.

Many trans men take testosterone and pound for pound are as strong as cisgender men. Concerns about the safety of trans men taking part are misfounded and transphobic.
If a sporting body is unworried about the safety of women entering men's sport, they can permit them to do so, and it would be called a mixed category. Nobody is suggesting that's unlawful.

Trans women who play women’s sport these days tend to have to meet strict eligibility requirements. They are unlikely to have a significant advantage. If they do, it will be almost impossible to prove they have the advantage because they are trans.
They have a significant advantage not because they are trans but because they are men.

A domestic violence support group set up separately for men and women under sched. 3 para. 26(2). is being setup on the basis of bio-segregation. But trans men and women would not be able to attend the group for their lived sex due to the operation of the law and it would be completely inappropriate in practice for them to attend the group matching their birth sex. Indeed, if they were permitted to attend groups matching their birth sex the rational for separate sex groups would be undermined and para. 26 would not apply. As a result, trans people would be completely excluded from the service. Completely excluding trans people from the service would not be proportionate so para. 26 could not apply.

Completely excluding trans people from a service could absolutely be proportionate, if to include them in the service provided for either sex would make that service insufficiently effective, and providing a separate service for trans people is impractical (such as insufficient numbers for a group service.) For the same reason that a women's refuge service is not also obliged to provide a parallel men's refuge service. Schedule 3 para 28 explicitly permits a service provider to discriminate against gender-reassigned people in the context of single- and seperate-sex services, if a proportionate means to a legitimate purpose.

Trans women have been placed in women’s hospitals wards for over 50 years without issue. Further, every year thousands of cisgender men are placed in women’s wards due to pressure on the NHS. As a result, excluding all trans women from a women’s ward is not proportionate and the sched. 3 para. 27 exception cannot be used.
Excluding all "trans women" from a women's ward is explicit in the meaning of a women's ward. Historical failure correctly to place patients in single-sex wards doesn't excuse the practice.

The example should explain that a bio-segregated hospital ward is unlawful and instead a trans inclusive women’s ward should be operated instead.
I make no further comment on the claim that a single-sex ward is illegal.

. Gyms, changing rooms and hospital wards are not examples where a bio-segregated service is lawful.
Again, no further comment from me on the proposition that single-sex changing rooms are illegal.

First, this example stereotypes all Muslim women as being hostile to trans women and as such is racist. There are many varied Muslim communities, only some of which have transphobic views.
Objecting to a male person in a female changing room is not demonstrating hostility. To suggest that "only some" Muslim communities have transphobic views appears to be engaging in the same racism the author imagines in the EHRC text.

Imagine a trans man who has fully transitioned and is every inch a man.
Except the inches that count, eh? Nudge nudge, wink wink...

There's a lot more on the single-sex services section which mostly consists of repeating the same points (not unreasonably, given the way the consultation is structured) but I don't feel like typing out the comments again and again, and this post is already too long.

As I said, I don't think we have too much to worry about from this organisation's submission.

Trans Legal Project | Blog

Trans Legal Project | Blog

https://www.translegalproject.org/blog-1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/06/2025 20:00

PlanetJanette · 23/06/2025 19:49

No it doesn’t.

Yes it does

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 23/06/2025 20:02

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/06/2025 19:45

The judges specifically talked about labelling and signage.

Could you point me to where they do that? I did a search for "sign" and "label" in the Ruling and the Press Release but nothing came up.

MyAmpleSheep · 23/06/2025 20:05

Equality legislation is very very complicated. It's extremely difficult to interpret correctly. That's the point of the EHRC code of conduct. It makes behaving lawfully accessible to those of us who don't want to become amateur legal scholars. We don't need a code of conduct to the Theft Act 1968 to tell us how not to steal. The Equality Act 2010 is very complicated to obey.

Unfortunately a lot of people who don't understand equality law in this country but think they do - are both disappointed when the EHRC explains it correctly and presume that's because of bad intent by the SC or the EHRC.

A lot of people think that discrimination by gender identity should be legal, and because it should be legal and we have an Equality Act that it is legal, and therefore anyone who says it isn't legal must be wrong and possibly a bad actor to boot.

The fact is that discrimination by gender identity isn't legal, and wishing it were doesn't change that. Only changing the law will change that.

OP posts:
POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 23/06/2025 20:09

I think we are hearing the sound of deckchairs desperately being moved around in an attempt to convince us that a particular arrangement means the ship is not sinking.

Gems from the Trans Legal Project response to EHRC consultation
Brainworm · 23/06/2025 20:16

I’ve been to venues where they’ve labelled their loos Does and Bucks, or Stags and Hinds. These are simply different labels for refer to the categories female and male.

The issue is the category.

There are 2 sexes. If you segregate by sex, it needs to be by sex and doing so needs to be a proportionate means to achieving a legitimate aim. (E.g. privacy and dignity in contexts where clothing is removed or intimate body parts visible). It makes no sense whatsoever to include any male bodied people.

In the example above, where intimate body parts are visible to others, how would someone’s self perception come into play as being a relevant factor to determining inclusion or exclusion. It defies belief that anyone thinks it should. Females should ignore the cock and balls (the primary reason for exclusion) due to the male’s gender identity.

borntobequiet · 23/06/2025 20:20

Many decades ago my mother used to tell me that I could argue until I was blue in the face, but I’d still be wrong (I mostly was wrong). It’s an expression I haven’t heard recently, but it informs my mental picture of some posters on here.

MyAmpleSheep · 23/06/2025 20:21

Brainworm · 23/06/2025 20:16

I’ve been to venues where they’ve labelled their loos Does and Bucks, or Stags and Hinds. These are simply different labels for refer to the categories female and male.

The issue is the category.

There are 2 sexes. If you segregate by sex, it needs to be by sex and doing so needs to be a proportionate means to achieving a legitimate aim. (E.g. privacy and dignity in contexts where clothing is removed or intimate body parts visible). It makes no sense whatsoever to include any male bodied people.

In the example above, where intimate body parts are visible to others, how would someone’s self perception come into play as being a relevant factor to determining inclusion or exclusion. It defies belief that anyone thinks it should. Females should ignore the cock and balls (the primary reason for exclusion) due to the male’s gender identity.

There are 2 sexes. If you segregate by sex, it needs to be by sex and doing so needs to be a proportionate means to achieving a legitimate aim. ..It makes no sense whatsoever to include any male bodied people.

It's even stronger than whether it makes sense. You can't include only some male-bodied people, even if it did make 100% sense to do so. To avoid unlawful discrimination, a public toilet has to be strictly sex-segregated or not sex-segregated all all. (Which may be unlawful too, for indirect discrimination against women, but that's an argument to be made.)

OP posts:
Brainworm · 23/06/2025 20:28

MyAmpleSheep · 23/06/2025 20:21

There are 2 sexes. If you segregate by sex, it needs to be by sex and doing so needs to be a proportionate means to achieving a legitimate aim. ..It makes no sense whatsoever to include any male bodied people.

It's even stronger than whether it makes sense. You can't include only some male-bodied people, even if it did make 100% sense to do so. To avoid unlawful discrimination, a public toilet has to be strictly sex-segregated or not sex-segregated all all. (Which may be unlawful too, for indirect discrimination against women, but that's an argument to be made.)

Edited

I struggle to think of a single legitimate aim for which having female only provision is a proportionate means to achieving it, whereby it including some or all males would make sense. This would undermine the rationality of the aim - I imagine?

If there wasn’t a legitimate aim, being female only wouldn’t be legal.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/06/2025 20:31

I will say however I would absolutely love someone to attempt to put one of Planet's supposed entirely allowable Women's Genderclub services into practice, because I am pretty sure JKR's new legal fund would jump at the chance to fund a court case that forces someone to explain in court exactly what Women's Mixed Sex Genderclub criteria are and how they apply in a non sexist way.

Haulage · 23/06/2025 20:37

Brainworm · 23/06/2025 20:28

I struggle to think of a single legitimate aim for which having female only provision is a proportionate means to achieving it, whereby it including some or all males would make sense. This would undermine the rationality of the aim - I imagine?

If there wasn’t a legitimate aim, being female only wouldn’t be legal.

I agree. The criteria might as well be ‘women and only men who like mushrooms’ for all the use it would be.

MyAmpleSheep · 23/06/2025 20:39

Brainworm · 23/06/2025 20:28

I struggle to think of a single legitimate aim for which having female only provision is a proportionate means to achieving it, whereby it including some or all males would make sense. This would undermine the rationality of the aim - I imagine?

If there wasn’t a legitimate aim, being female only wouldn’t be legal.

If there wasn't a legitimate aim, or it wasn't a proportional route to it, then yes, a single-sex toilet/hospital ward/changing room wouldn't be legal. It's not a hard argument to say that a single-sex toilet is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim - but it still needs to be said.

Regardless of whether there's a legitimate aim or whether it's a proportional route to that aim, a "female gender identity" toilet/hospital ward/changing room can never be legal.

I've updated my diagram to show the unlawful discrimination inherent in any single gender identity service or association. In this case, people in the pink squares (green dot person and red dot person) have female gender identities and are welcomed into the association or service and blue dot person (who doesn't) isn't. He's angry about this and he's going to sue, for the reasons in the diagram. And he'll win.

Gems from the Trans Legal Project response to EHRC consultation
OP posts:
potpourree · 23/06/2025 20:54

Look, i know you'll all think I'm bonkers but on this and other threads I'm genuinely grateful to PlanetJanette for at least trying to communicate, clearly, what their view is.

This almost never happens and any kind of logical train of thought that "the other side" might be ruminating on tends to remain a mystery. At least if it's set out clearly, with an attempt to explain - however correct or not it is factually - we can see where any misunderstanding or talking at odds is happening.

Right I'll go back to catching up with the thread now and see if I still think this at the end Grin

Bannedontherun · 23/06/2025 20:56

All these hypothetical scenarios (AKA deck chair shuffling) are as per usual designed to confuse the gullible.

not us here obviously.

The ruling is about navigating the practicalities of the real world.

Brainworm · 23/06/2025 21:09

I think it’s important to remember that groups with fewer than 25 members are not bound by the provisions in the EA.

So you could have a book club or running club for women and transwomen and you could label it a ‘woman’s club’ or a club for didgerydoodoos. You can make up whatever eligibility criteria you want. The exception to this being if you receive public funding - cos that comes with equality obligations.

MyAmpleSheep · 23/06/2025 21:16

Brainworm · 23/06/2025 21:09

I think it’s important to remember that groups with fewer than 25 members are not bound by the provisions in the EA.

So you could have a book club or running club for women and transwomen and you could label it a ‘woman’s club’ or a club for didgerydoodoos. You can make up whatever eligibility criteria you want. The exception to this being if you receive public funding - cos that comes with equality obligations.

As long as it's not a service offered to the public. A "female gender identity drop-in" can't call itself a club to avoid being a service and therefore escape the rules on discrimination that apply to services regardless of how many people use them.

OP posts:
lcakethereforeIam · 23/06/2025 21:18

borntobequiet · 23/06/2025 20:20

Many decades ago my mother used to tell me that I could argue until I was blue in the face, but I’d still be wrong (I mostly was wrong). It’s an expression I haven’t heard recently, but it informs my mental picture of some posters on here.

Perhaps update it to 'blue in the hair'? 😁

Brainworm · 23/06/2025 21:19

MyAmpleSheep · 23/06/2025 21:16

As long as it's not a service offered to the public. A "female gender identity drop-in" can't call itself a club to avoid being a service and therefore escape the rules on discrimination that apply to services regardless of how many people use them.

My understanding is that the under 25 ‘members’ refers to a group or association. I think a drop in would be a service.

MarieDeGournay · 23/06/2025 21:24

PlanetJanette keeps ignoring or waving away into a parenthesis - that there are things other than the Equality Act which require, in the first place, single-sex toilets, and also clear signage.

The actual design and equipping of buildings in the real world is governed by a range of rules and regulations such as building regs.

If a building inspector finds that a venue which has enough space for sex-segregated toilets has failed to do so for no good reason, I don't think saying 'But the Equality Act...' is going to help. Building regulations are statutory instruments, not topics for debate.

PlanetJanette hasn't yet explained why she called women expressing an opinion 'hate'
you couldn't move for people hopped up on hate.
This is the third time I've asked what is 'hateful' about expressing an opinion, which happened to shared at a later stage by the judges of the Supreme Court.

For the benefit of potpourree's catch-up, the unprovoked accusation of hatred popped up on Page 8 at 15.14

MyAmpleSheep · 23/06/2025 21:32

Brainworm · 23/06/2025 21:19

My understanding is that the under 25 ‘members’ refers to a group or association. I think a drop in would be a service.

I do see the opportunity for some creative ambiguity at the edge. Is it a book club whose admission criterion is to have a female gender identity, and which accepts up to 24 members (lawful)? Or is it a book discussion 'service' - open only to members of the public who have a female gender identity - write your name on the clipboard by the door (not lawful)?

OP posts:
potpourree · 23/06/2025 21:40

MarieDeGournay · 23/06/2025 21:24

PlanetJanette keeps ignoring or waving away into a parenthesis - that there are things other than the Equality Act which require, in the first place, single-sex toilets, and also clear signage.

The actual design and equipping of buildings in the real world is governed by a range of rules and regulations such as building regs.

If a building inspector finds that a venue which has enough space for sex-segregated toilets has failed to do so for no good reason, I don't think saying 'But the Equality Act...' is going to help. Building regulations are statutory instruments, not topics for debate.

PlanetJanette hasn't yet explained why she called women expressing an opinion 'hate'
you couldn't move for people hopped up on hate.
This is the third time I've asked what is 'hateful' about expressing an opinion, which happened to shared at a later stage by the judges of the Supreme Court.

For the benefit of potpourree's catch-up, the unprovoked accusation of hatred popped up on Page 8 at 15.14

My page settings identify in a different way from yours, but I saw it. I'm honestly (despite being told on other threads by another poster that I'm lying about this!) just curious about the legal or logical argument being had, so I just discount any ad hominems as irrelevant. "Hate" is irrelevant to the argument being made, and certainly doesn't apply to me!

And also thanks to OP for working through this.

"Anyone with a sexual attraction is bisexual" is certainly a new one for me!

Brainworm · 23/06/2025 21:45

MyAmpleSheep · 23/06/2025 21:32

I do see the opportunity for some creative ambiguity at the edge. Is it a book club whose admission criterion is to have a female gender identity, and which accepts up to 24 members (lawful)? Or is it a book discussion 'service' - open only to members of the public who have a female gender identity - write your name on the clipboard by the door (not lawful)?

My understanding is that the provision relating to fewer than 25 is meant to allow for people with a desire to join together in pursuit of something (a shared interest, hobby etc.) to determine for themselves who the ‘club’ or ‘group’ is aimed for.

I think it would be pretty despotic to try and prevent this. If a small group of people want to have a knitting club, book club, or whatever, that I am excluded from for whatever reason - I don’t have a problem with that. Similarly, if they set criteria that would make me eligible but I didn’t agree with their eligibility criteria, I simply wouldn’t join.

drspouse · 23/06/2025 21:45

MyAmpleSheep · 23/06/2025 21:32

I do see the opportunity for some creative ambiguity at the edge. Is it a book club whose admission criterion is to have a female gender identity, and which accepts up to 24 members (lawful)? Or is it a book discussion 'service' - open only to members of the public who have a female gender identity - write your name on the clipboard by the door (not lawful)?

I think the book group would have to basically be a friendship group - you are invited by the organisers personally.
If it's a book group it's bound by some kind of rules (you come along to discuss books) and may be larger (if open to anyone interested).

WithSilverBells · 23/06/2025 22:47

Thanks for a great brain work out everyone. @FlirtsWithRhinos you are effin amazing. Everything you said made perfect sense.
I came to MN, like so many, looking for answers. I have gradually come to realise that there are no answers to be had from the GI crowd. It's just the same nonsense again and again. Sometimes it is higher level nonsense, and I am going to credit Janet with a good attempt.
I think the reason I stay here now is just to marvel at the sheer brilliance of so many women.

JanesLittleGirl · 23/06/2025 22:55

I have spent a large part of this evening being amused by a certain PP's posts around how single gender sanitary provisions are perfectly legal. Employers and service providers are allowed to provide both single sex facilities and universal facilities. Single sex facilities are restricted to that sex and not that gender. Universal facilities must be single use, enclosed in a lockable room and contain hand washing facilities. Single gender facilities simply fail at the first hurdle.

This isn't a matter of a provider choosing to not seek a single sex exemption, it is a matter of how sanitary facilities may be provided in law.

SinnerBoy · 24/06/2025 00:10

PlanetJanette · Yesterday 14:15

Second, because the judgment has been used to go far beyond what the Court actually said...

What absolutely piffle! How can that be? The Court would most definitely have something to say, if that were the case, which it absolutely is not.

People can read the judgment and the guidance and see that nothing has been added. Or lie and pretend that things have been added, in the hope that everyone is either blind, or illiterate.