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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gems from the Trans Legal Project response to EHRC consultation

350 replies

MyAmpleSheep · 22/06/2025 16:55

The Trans Legal Project's response to the open EHRC consultation is available here:
https://www.translegalproject.org/blog-1

I was going to write a more detailed critique of it, but realized that working through what seem to me to be all of the legal errors contained in it would about a weeks's work.

If this is tldr for you, then don't worry - you have nothing to fear from this organisation's response.

Here are some gems though (TLP text in bold, my comments underneath.)

Use of the term biological sex is confusing.
Uh, no, no it isn't.

What happens if the individual refuses to confirm their birth sex?
Then you don't have to let them in; same as if they refuse to tell you their name or age, if those are relevant and required to provide the service.

What happens if an individual does not know their birth sex (e.g. they are intersex)?
People with DSD's know their biological sex, even if they later turn out to be mistaken. An honest mistake as to one's biological sex is exculpatory for using the wrong service. If any person is not sure, then they can take the trouble to find out.

How does a service provider determine the individual has answered objectively falsely if the individual has made a full medical and legal transition?
There's no such thing as a "full" medical transition, but if someone lies about their biological sex then they're just lying liars who lie. Just like someone who lies about their age, or other relevant condition of entry. Just because some people are lying liars, it doesn't invalidate the idea of responsibly confirming that your service is being used by the correct people.

What about trans people who “pass”? Based on this example those trans people who “pass” are permitted to use single-sex services
No, they're really not. If a "passing" trans person sneaks into a service for someone not of their biological sex, they're lying liars who lie, and shouldn't be there. No further consequences flow. See my previous point.

Following FWS, anyone who experiences sexual attraction is now bisexual.
This is too stupid to comment on further.

There needs to be a new example showing that trans women who breastfeed are protected by the pregnancy and maternity protections on the basis of case law.
Trans women can't breastfeed in the correct sense of the term.

First, a women’s group can choose to admit cisgender and transgender women. It is not direct sex discrimination as individuals of both legal sexes are admitted.
It is direct sex discrimination. A group that allows in all white people and only black people who shave their heads is still directly discriminating on the grounds of race, even though some black people are admitted. Similarly, a single token Irish person in your service is not a failsafe talisman to prove you're incapable of unlawful discrimination against Irish people (nationality).

Third, although single legal sex women’s organisations are possible in law, they are impossible in practice. The reason is that if the association does not check the birth sex of everyone who joins, they risk allowing a trans woman to join and losing the protection of the single-characteristic exception.
No, they're really not impossible in practice. If an organization confirms prior to membership with an applicant that their biological sex is female, and takes reasonable steps to confirm this, then its protection against a claim for unlawful discrimination is not diminished by the fraudulent membership of lying people who lie.

There should also be an example that it is unlawful when a single-sex women’s association tries to restrict membership to only same-sex attracted people as only single-sex characteristic associations are allowed. There seems to be a belief that lesbian only associations are lawful under the EA 2010; they are not.
Explicitly, associations for members who share more than one protected characteristic are permitted. That someone in authority could write that lesbian-only associations are unlawful under the EA2010 is quite ... surprising.

Many trans men take testosterone and pound for pound are as strong as cisgender men. Concerns about the safety of trans men taking part are misfounded and transphobic.
If a sporting body is unworried about the safety of women entering men's sport, they can permit them to do so, and it would be called a mixed category. Nobody is suggesting that's unlawful.

Trans women who play women’s sport these days tend to have to meet strict eligibility requirements. They are unlikely to have a significant advantage. If they do, it will be almost impossible to prove they have the advantage because they are trans.
They have a significant advantage not because they are trans but because they are men.

A domestic violence support group set up separately for men and women under sched. 3 para. 26(2). is being setup on the basis of bio-segregation. But trans men and women would not be able to attend the group for their lived sex due to the operation of the law and it would be completely inappropriate in practice for them to attend the group matching their birth sex. Indeed, if they were permitted to attend groups matching their birth sex the rational for separate sex groups would be undermined and para. 26 would not apply. As a result, trans people would be completely excluded from the service. Completely excluding trans people from the service would not be proportionate so para. 26 could not apply.

Completely excluding trans people from a service could absolutely be proportionate, if to include them in the service provided for either sex would make that service insufficiently effective, and providing a separate service for trans people is impractical (such as insufficient numbers for a group service.) For the same reason that a women's refuge service is not also obliged to provide a parallel men's refuge service. Schedule 3 para 28 explicitly permits a service provider to discriminate against gender-reassigned people in the context of single- and seperate-sex services, if a proportionate means to a legitimate purpose.

Trans women have been placed in women’s hospitals wards for over 50 years without issue. Further, every year thousands of cisgender men are placed in women’s wards due to pressure on the NHS. As a result, excluding all trans women from a women’s ward is not proportionate and the sched. 3 para. 27 exception cannot be used.
Excluding all "trans women" from a women's ward is explicit in the meaning of a women's ward. Historical failure correctly to place patients in single-sex wards doesn't excuse the practice.

The example should explain that a bio-segregated hospital ward is unlawful and instead a trans inclusive women’s ward should be operated instead.
I make no further comment on the claim that a single-sex ward is illegal.

. Gyms, changing rooms and hospital wards are not examples where a bio-segregated service is lawful.
Again, no further comment from me on the proposition that single-sex changing rooms are illegal.

First, this example stereotypes all Muslim women as being hostile to trans women and as such is racist. There are many varied Muslim communities, only some of which have transphobic views.
Objecting to a male person in a female changing room is not demonstrating hostility. To suggest that "only some" Muslim communities have transphobic views appears to be engaging in the same racism the author imagines in the EHRC text.

Imagine a trans man who has fully transitioned and is every inch a man.
Except the inches that count, eh? Nudge nudge, wink wink...

There's a lot more on the single-sex services section which mostly consists of repeating the same points (not unreasonably, given the way the consultation is structured) but I don't feel like typing out the comments again and again, and this post is already too long.

As I said, I don't think we have too much to worry about from this organisation's submission.

Trans Legal Project | Blog

Trans Legal Project | Blog

https://www.translegalproject.org/blog-1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 22/06/2025 18:50

@Cornishpotato

I've had to do this myself with them and it's an amazing experience I have to say.

Isn't it just? I'm sure many of them are just grifters, or hard of thinking, but I have one transwoman friend whose discourse puts me in mind of sufferers from anosognosia (where a psychiatric or neurological event causes lack of insight into a deficit).

For example, a stroke victim may be unaware he has lost the use of one arm, and cannot be made aware. If asked to move the arm, he will come up with every excuse under the sun why he's not going to do that right now, just as it so happens.

My TWF is highly educated in the natural sciences and statistics, yet when we discuss Cass, or Sullivan, or the SC, TWF comes out with the sort of false logic that would make a baby blush. It really seems like part of TWF's brain isn't talking to the rest.

I think this is what keeps bringing me back. It's not feminist rage. It's the mystery.

Hoardasurass · 22/06/2025 18:54

shuggles · 22/06/2025 18:20

They generally have beards and are bald, so they don't resemble boys.

Yes bum fluff beards just like my teenage ds and his friends.

Cornishpotato · 22/06/2025 19:01

right-wing culture war obsessives
Gender Critical fanatics

They absolutely hate us.

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 22/06/2025 19:01

@TheOtherRaven

Re: proportionate means etc.

Indeed. RIP Schedule 3 para 28, except when keeping a transman out as an exception to the general rule against perceptive discrimination.

SinnerBoy · 22/06/2025 19:24

Well goodness me! There's not a word of truth in any of that saga, is there? Sadly, people who want believe it will seize on it and it'll make its way into the literature of TRA organisations and bd passed off as fact.

GallantKumquat · 22/06/2025 21:32

I'd point out that what the translegalproject is saying is that before the supreme court ruling, single sex services and spaces were already defunct. The following reasoning illustrates that.

"Third, although single legal sex women’s organisations are possible in law, they are impossible in practice. The reason is that if the association does not check the birth sex of everyone who joins, they risk allowing a trans woman to join and losing the protection of the single-characteristic exception."

If the SC had ruled in the opposite way, it would still be impossible to have a single 'gender' space, because it's illegal to ask someone for a GRC. So obviously, some people not technically women (from a GRA perspective) would have joined, therefor all men must be allowed. The same could be said even if the criteria was saying "I identify as a non-man." As clearly that can't be ensured since it's not an immutable characteristic and therefore could change between asking the person at the door and when they stepped into the venue.

This is a totally unreasonable position that can't possibly be acceptable to the voting public, probably by margins of 80%+. Presumably translegalproject would claim that that not all of their arguments make so strong a case. But then the question becomes: which ones lend themselves to a reasonable state of affairs (assuming, again, even if SC had found for Scotland rather than WFS), and which abolish sex, or even 'gender', as an enforceable, legally valid, in practice, category? In fact this lies at the heart of the SC judgement and reasoning -- anything other than biological woman/man, renders all the sex based law in the EA incoherent.

PennyAnnLane · 22/06/2025 21:40

It seems they want to change the law, that’s not what the consultation is for. Also they should actually meet some trans people, then they’ll understand why single sex spaces are actually possible #wecanalwaystell

spannasaurus · 22/06/2025 21:46

"Third, although single legal sex women’s organisations are possible in law, they are impossible in practice. The reason is that if the association does not check the birth sex of everyone who joins, they risk allowing a trans woman to join and losing the protection of the single-characteristic exception."

It's pointless trying to keep us out of womens spaces because we'll just lie and ignore the law so don't even bother trying to stop us.

MarieDeGournay · 22/06/2025 22:07

Thank you MyAmpleSheep, that is so impressive. Who needs a Supreme Court anyway, just run it by MyAmpleSheep Wink

Bannedontherun · 22/06/2025 22:39

It is one of the contributions to the consultation that will be “in the bin” merely because it argues with the lawfulness of the ruling, which is not something that the EHRC can address at all.

It was eye popping in places.

The breast feeding men who should be covered by maternity rights being the best one since they have not given birth.

the response in its entirety is …a ‘tale told by idiots full of sound and fury signifying nothing”

MyAmpleSheep · 22/06/2025 23:50

It's a pity that so much of the submission is dedicated to telling the EHRC they've got the law wrong. Firstly they haven't, and secondly that's explicitly not the purpose of the consultation anyway. Some of the comments are that the examples given are unclear, or (allegedly) racist sterotypes, or otherwise need improving. That's the sort of comment the EHRC is hoping to receive, from everyone. I'm sure those opinions are welcome with the EHRC, even if we don't agree with them.

OP posts:
MyAmpleSheep · 23/06/2025 03:58

From the TLP submission:
First, a women’s group can choose to admit cisgender and transgender women. It is not direct sex discrimination as individuals of both legal sexes are admitted

I addressed this point above, but I’ve just seen that Michael Foran devotes a whole page to it, much more clearly and authoritatively than I could. Very much worth a read:
https://knowingius.org/p/is-the-women-only-tower-block-lawful

Is the "women-only tower block" lawful?

The BBC has reported that a tower block is scheduled to open next summer catering exclusively to women.

https://knowingius.org/p/is-the-women-only-tower-block-lawful

OP posts:
Kucinghitam · 23/06/2025 06:48

SinnerBoy · 22/06/2025 19:24

Well goodness me! There's not a word of truth in any of that saga, is there? Sadly, people who want believe it will seize on it and it'll make its way into the literature of TRA organisations and bd passed off as fact.

Well, when they start from a lie (that a male can become a woman/ a female can become a man), there's nowhere else to go but more lies.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 23/06/2025 08:35

GallantKumquat · 22/06/2025 21:32

I'd point out that what the translegalproject is saying is that before the supreme court ruling, single sex services and spaces were already defunct. The following reasoning illustrates that.

"Third, although single legal sex women’s organisations are possible in law, they are impossible in practice. The reason is that if the association does not check the birth sex of everyone who joins, they risk allowing a trans woman to join and losing the protection of the single-characteristic exception."

If the SC had ruled in the opposite way, it would still be impossible to have a single 'gender' space, because it's illegal to ask someone for a GRC. So obviously, some people not technically women (from a GRA perspective) would have joined, therefor all men must be allowed. The same could be said even if the criteria was saying "I identify as a non-man." As clearly that can't be ensured since it's not an immutable characteristic and therefore could change between asking the person at the door and when they stepped into the venue.

This is a totally unreasonable position that can't possibly be acceptable to the voting public, probably by margins of 80%+. Presumably translegalproject would claim that that not all of their arguments make so strong a case. But then the question becomes: which ones lend themselves to a reasonable state of affairs (assuming, again, even if SC had found for Scotland rather than WFS), and which abolish sex, or even 'gender', as an enforceable, legally valid, in practice, category? In fact this lies at the heart of the SC judgement and reasoning -- anything other than biological woman/man, renders all the sex based law in the EA incoherent.

it's illegal to ask someone for a GRC
This is a common misconception but it's not actually illegal to ask someone for a GRC. It is illegal to reveal knowledge or details of a GRC if that knowledge was obtained in an official capacity.

RareGoalsVerge · 23/06/2025 08:48

shuggles · 22/06/2025 18:20

They generally have beards and are bald, so they don't resemble boys.

There's a wide variety. It depends how much testosterone they take, and given the long term destruction of health that T causes to a female body, many don't. A lot look like butch lesbians. A lot look like women wearing a little beard. A few grow a big bushy beard and go a bit overboard on the body-building.

Dwimmer · 23/06/2025 09:45

Nameychangington · 22/06/2025 17:05

There needs to be a new example showing that trans women who breastfeed are protected by the pregnancy and maternity protections on the basis of case law.

What case law is this?

The Supreme Court overrules any precedents set by lower courts.

But I would be interested to know what case they have in mind.

Fecklessfrog · 23/06/2025 09:54

Its actually better than my public sector employer's submission.

I think these submissions are helpful They show clearly just how profoundly organisations have not understood the SC ruling, and how deeply resistant they are to applying the law.

Its good for the EHRC to know this when redrafting the guidance.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/06/2025 10:03

spannasaurus · 22/06/2025 21:46

"Third, although single legal sex women’s organisations are possible in law, they are impossible in practice. The reason is that if the association does not check the birth sex of everyone who joins, they risk allowing a trans woman to join and losing the protection of the single-characteristic exception."

It's pointless trying to keep us out of womens spaces because we'll just lie and ignore the law so don't even bother trying to stop us.

If you go onto Reddit many of these men are quite open about that.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/06/2025 10:04

Fecklessfrog · 23/06/2025 09:54

Its actually better than my public sector employer's submission.

I think these submissions are helpful They show clearly just how profoundly organisations have not understood the SC ruling, and how deeply resistant they are to applying the law.

Its good for the EHRC to know this when redrafting the guidance.

Yes I pointed out how clear and unequivocal the language would need to be in my own submission.

GallantKumquat · 23/06/2025 10:35

PrettyDamnCosmic · 23/06/2025 08:35

it's illegal to ask someone for a GRC
This is a common misconception but it's not actually illegal to ask someone for a GRC. It is illegal to reveal knowledge or details of a GRC if that knowledge was obtained in an official capacity.

It's probably not quite correct to say that it's illegal to ask someone for a GRC. However a duty barer may not ask whether it has been obtained. Below is an excerpt from the SC ruling that came to mind as I was writing my comment, FWS v Scotland [202]:

"Since, as we have explained above, neither possession of a GRC nor the protected characteristic of gender reassignment require any physiological change or even any change in outward appearance, there is no obvious outward means of distinguishing between a person with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment who has a GRC and a person with that characteristic who does not. The only difference between these two groups is possession of a paper certificate and that fact (possessing a GRC) is confidential to the person who has it and subject to stringent restrictions on disclosure (see section 22 of the GRA 2004). The duty-bearer cannot ask whether it has been obtained. There is, accordingly, no way for duty-bearers to distinguish confidently between these two groups when regulating their conduct in accordance with obligations imposed by the EA 2010."

HayleeHarison · 23/06/2025 10:47

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 23/06/2025 10:50

GallantKumquat · 23/06/2025 10:35

It's probably not quite correct to say that it's illegal to ask someone for a GRC. However a duty barer may not ask whether it has been obtained. Below is an excerpt from the SC ruling that came to mind as I was writing my comment, FWS v Scotland [202]:

"Since, as we have explained above, neither possession of a GRC nor the protected characteristic of gender reassignment require any physiological change or even any change in outward appearance, there is no obvious outward means of distinguishing between a person with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment who has a GRC and a person with that characteristic who does not. The only difference between these two groups is possession of a paper certificate and that fact (possessing a GRC) is confidential to the person who has it and subject to stringent restrictions on disclosure (see section 22 of the GRA 2004). The duty-bearer cannot ask whether it has been obtained. There is, accordingly, no way for duty-bearers to distinguish confidently between these two groups when regulating their conduct in accordance with obligations imposed by the EA 2010."

Edited

If it's not illegal then the duty bearer can ask for evidence of a GRC.

BTW there is a specific exemption from the offence under the Gender Recognition Act 2004 of disclosing protected information relating to a person with a GRC for the purposes of preventing crime. If the holder of the GRC is proposing on breaking the law by invading an opposite sex single sex space then it would be legal to out them even if information regarding a GRC had been acquired in an official capacity.

HayleeHarison · 23/06/2025 10:52

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 23/06/2025 10:53

GallantKumquat · 23/06/2025 10:35

It's probably not quite correct to say that it's illegal to ask someone for a GRC. However a duty barer may not ask whether it has been obtained. Below is an excerpt from the SC ruling that came to mind as I was writing my comment, FWS v Scotland [202]:

"Since, as we have explained above, neither possession of a GRC nor the protected characteristic of gender reassignment require any physiological change or even any change in outward appearance, there is no obvious outward means of distinguishing between a person with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment who has a GRC and a person with that characteristic who does not. The only difference between these two groups is possession of a paper certificate and that fact (possessing a GRC) is confidential to the person who has it and subject to stringent restrictions on disclosure (see section 22 of the GRA 2004). The duty-bearer cannot ask whether it has been obtained. There is, accordingly, no way for duty-bearers to distinguish confidently between these two groups when regulating their conduct in accordance with obligations imposed by the EA 2010."

Edited

Except that is not what it says in the GRA2004 Section 22.

I was very surprised to see that the Supreme Court said that.

Section 22 is about "disclosing" information held to others.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/22

It is also obvious that the "duty bearer" CAN ask if the person has a GRC because there are provisions in Section 22 for the duty bearer to disclose that information under certain circumstances.

Gems from the Trans Legal Project response to EHRC consultation
Gems from the Trans Legal Project response to EHRC consultation
Gems from the Trans Legal Project response to EHRC consultation
GallantKumquat · 23/06/2025 10:54

PrettyDamnCosmic · 23/06/2025 10:50

If it's not illegal then the duty bearer can ask for evidence of a GRC.

BTW there is a specific exemption from the offence under the Gender Recognition Act 2004 of disclosing protected information relating to a person with a GRC for the purposes of preventing crime. If the holder of the GRC is proposing on breaking the law by invading an opposite sex single sex space then it would be legal to out them even if information regarding a GRC had been acquired in an official capacity.

I'm confused, I quoted the SC judgement which says; "The duty-bearer cannot ask whether it has been obtained." Are you saying they are in error, or am I missing something?