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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gems from the Trans Legal Project response to EHRC consultation

350 replies

MyAmpleSheep · 22/06/2025 16:55

The Trans Legal Project's response to the open EHRC consultation is available here:
https://www.translegalproject.org/blog-1

I was going to write a more detailed critique of it, but realized that working through what seem to me to be all of the legal errors contained in it would about a weeks's work.

If this is tldr for you, then don't worry - you have nothing to fear from this organisation's response.

Here are some gems though (TLP text in bold, my comments underneath.)

Use of the term biological sex is confusing.
Uh, no, no it isn't.

What happens if the individual refuses to confirm their birth sex?
Then you don't have to let them in; same as if they refuse to tell you their name or age, if those are relevant and required to provide the service.

What happens if an individual does not know their birth sex (e.g. they are intersex)?
People with DSD's know their biological sex, even if they later turn out to be mistaken. An honest mistake as to one's biological sex is exculpatory for using the wrong service. If any person is not sure, then they can take the trouble to find out.

How does a service provider determine the individual has answered objectively falsely if the individual has made a full medical and legal transition?
There's no such thing as a "full" medical transition, but if someone lies about their biological sex then they're just lying liars who lie. Just like someone who lies about their age, or other relevant condition of entry. Just because some people are lying liars, it doesn't invalidate the idea of responsibly confirming that your service is being used by the correct people.

What about trans people who “pass”? Based on this example those trans people who “pass” are permitted to use single-sex services
No, they're really not. If a "passing" trans person sneaks into a service for someone not of their biological sex, they're lying liars who lie, and shouldn't be there. No further consequences flow. See my previous point.

Following FWS, anyone who experiences sexual attraction is now bisexual.
This is too stupid to comment on further.

There needs to be a new example showing that trans women who breastfeed are protected by the pregnancy and maternity protections on the basis of case law.
Trans women can't breastfeed in the correct sense of the term.

First, a women’s group can choose to admit cisgender and transgender women. It is not direct sex discrimination as individuals of both legal sexes are admitted.
It is direct sex discrimination. A group that allows in all white people and only black people who shave their heads is still directly discriminating on the grounds of race, even though some black people are admitted. Similarly, a single token Irish person in your service is not a failsafe talisman to prove you're incapable of unlawful discrimination against Irish people (nationality).

Third, although single legal sex women’s organisations are possible in law, they are impossible in practice. The reason is that if the association does not check the birth sex of everyone who joins, they risk allowing a trans woman to join and losing the protection of the single-characteristic exception.
No, they're really not impossible in practice. If an organization confirms prior to membership with an applicant that their biological sex is female, and takes reasonable steps to confirm this, then its protection against a claim for unlawful discrimination is not diminished by the fraudulent membership of lying people who lie.

There should also be an example that it is unlawful when a single-sex women’s association tries to restrict membership to only same-sex attracted people as only single-sex characteristic associations are allowed. There seems to be a belief that lesbian only associations are lawful under the EA 2010; they are not.
Explicitly, associations for members who share more than one protected characteristic are permitted. That someone in authority could write that lesbian-only associations are unlawful under the EA2010 is quite ... surprising.

Many trans men take testosterone and pound for pound are as strong as cisgender men. Concerns about the safety of trans men taking part are misfounded and transphobic.
If a sporting body is unworried about the safety of women entering men's sport, they can permit them to do so, and it would be called a mixed category. Nobody is suggesting that's unlawful.

Trans women who play women’s sport these days tend to have to meet strict eligibility requirements. They are unlikely to have a significant advantage. If they do, it will be almost impossible to prove they have the advantage because they are trans.
They have a significant advantage not because they are trans but because they are men.

A domestic violence support group set up separately for men and women under sched. 3 para. 26(2). is being setup on the basis of bio-segregation. But trans men and women would not be able to attend the group for their lived sex due to the operation of the law and it would be completely inappropriate in practice for them to attend the group matching their birth sex. Indeed, if they were permitted to attend groups matching their birth sex the rational for separate sex groups would be undermined and para. 26 would not apply. As a result, trans people would be completely excluded from the service. Completely excluding trans people from the service would not be proportionate so para. 26 could not apply.

Completely excluding trans people from a service could absolutely be proportionate, if to include them in the service provided for either sex would make that service insufficiently effective, and providing a separate service for trans people is impractical (such as insufficient numbers for a group service.) For the same reason that a women's refuge service is not also obliged to provide a parallel men's refuge service. Schedule 3 para 28 explicitly permits a service provider to discriminate against gender-reassigned people in the context of single- and seperate-sex services, if a proportionate means to a legitimate purpose.

Trans women have been placed in women’s hospitals wards for over 50 years without issue. Further, every year thousands of cisgender men are placed in women’s wards due to pressure on the NHS. As a result, excluding all trans women from a women’s ward is not proportionate and the sched. 3 para. 27 exception cannot be used.
Excluding all "trans women" from a women's ward is explicit in the meaning of a women's ward. Historical failure correctly to place patients in single-sex wards doesn't excuse the practice.

The example should explain that a bio-segregated hospital ward is unlawful and instead a trans inclusive women’s ward should be operated instead.
I make no further comment on the claim that a single-sex ward is illegal.

. Gyms, changing rooms and hospital wards are not examples where a bio-segregated service is lawful.
Again, no further comment from me on the proposition that single-sex changing rooms are illegal.

First, this example stereotypes all Muslim women as being hostile to trans women and as such is racist. There are many varied Muslim communities, only some of which have transphobic views.
Objecting to a male person in a female changing room is not demonstrating hostility. To suggest that "only some" Muslim communities have transphobic views appears to be engaging in the same racism the author imagines in the EHRC text.

Imagine a trans man who has fully transitioned and is every inch a man.
Except the inches that count, eh? Nudge nudge, wink wink...

There's a lot more on the single-sex services section which mostly consists of repeating the same points (not unreasonably, given the way the consultation is structured) but I don't feel like typing out the comments again and again, and this post is already too long.

As I said, I don't think we have too much to worry about from this organisation's submission.

Trans Legal Project | Blog

Trans Legal Project | Blog

https://www.translegalproject.org/blog-1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
TwoLoonsAndASprout · 22/06/2025 17:04

Thank you for taking one for the team, @MyAmpleSheep, and trawling through that so the rest of us can maintain our sanity.

Nameychangington · 22/06/2025 17:05

There needs to be a new example showing that trans women who breastfeed are protected by the pregnancy and maternity protections on the basis of case law.

What case law is this?

MyAmpleSheep · 22/06/2025 17:12

One further point that stands out: the assertion that lesbian-only associations are unlawful is especially surprising given the attention explicitly paid to the rights of lesbians to associate by the Supreme Court in FWS.

OP posts:
theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 22/06/2025 17:18

Using the term “biological male” is a transphobic dog whistle

😂

Well that told their Lordships!

RobinHeartella · 22/06/2025 17:22

There needs to be a new example showing that trans women who breastfeed are protected by the pregnancy and maternity protections on the basis of case law.

If this ever happens, we will officially be in a dystopian nightmare. I just can't even. Do they think giving birth and breastfeeding is some cool girlie fun game that they want to take part in? They have no idea. They must despise their own mothers.

And why are they so adamant about the hospital wards, specifically? Why so desperate to break in on vulnerable, poorly women? It's chilling.

Kinsters · 22/06/2025 17:24

What planet are these people living on that that can just say things that are untrue and expect everyone to nod along and say "yes yes that's right because you said so". Actually you know what it reminds me of? That interview with Prince Andrew when he was denying the photo of him in Maxwells house was legitimate or something and Emily Maitlis asked a question along the lines of "but what evidence do you have to back up that statement". And he was just utterly incomprehending of the fact that "because I said so" wasn't good enough evidence. Pure arrogance and main character syndrome.

I also find it hilarious reading all these wild, far fetched scenarios where someone gets their feelings hurt and we're supposed to think "oh yes, that would be bad, better put a stop to all this". Whereas when women say "women have been raped and assaulted because of what you're doing, here's the evidence" and they say "nope. That doesn't happen. Shut up you transphobe."

Kinsters · 22/06/2025 17:33

And yes on the policing. People flout rules all the time. Sometimes it's found out and there are consequences, sometimes they get away with it. And what? Thats just the way the world is.

Cornishpotato · 22/06/2025 17:46

All the crazy things men have forced onto women in one awful summary of demands.

It's demonstrates how stuck they are, claiming perfectly normal single sex services are unlawful is the bullying we've witnessed over and over, and the reason it went to the supreme court.

I'm expecting there will be further tantrums when non of these demands appear in the guidance for the blatantly obvious legal reasons.

Cornishpotato · 22/06/2025 17:50

Over the last few years we have attacked the EHRC many times, corresponded with them to voice our outrage and attended sessions at which their people spoke to express our opposition

They reveal themselves here don't they?

Iamnotalemming · 22/06/2025 17:58

Just reading that summary of their arguments made me feel incredibly tired and sad. Women just want their stuff back. Why is this even controversial. Why on earth would it be illegal for lesbians to want to have a female only space??!!

countrysidedeficit · 22/06/2025 18:02

Can we just start calling TRAs what they are now - anti-women activists.

Cornishpotato · 22/06/2025 18:03

As it was, the day after the session, the Good Law Project announced that it had received correspondence from the EHRC in response to it's proposed action against them around its 'interim update'. This letter, written one working day before our session took place, in many respects chimes with the confusion that we sensed in the session itself.

This is an interesting observation.

They sense confusion. What is actually happening is that the EHRC staff are witnessing live reality denial by obvious men with their parallel and nonsensical world language, and are processing their incredulity, pity, and probably annoyance whilst attempting to silently translate trans speak into something understandable they can reply to without further engaging the volatility.

I've had to do this myself with them and it's an amazing experience I have to say.

Confused? No.

Bemused and fascinated. Yes.

MyAmpleSheep · 22/06/2025 18:09

The arguments about gate-keeping and the inability to prove biological sex seem to me to be a double-edged sword.

The TRA argument is that this inability, combined with Schedule 8 rights to privacy, make single-sex services impossible and therefore somehow unlawful.

Looked at the other way, if the inability to prove one's sex becomes a legal impediment to the practicality of lawful single-sex services, this seems to be a prima facie argument for explicitly loosening the application of Schedule 8 which in any case doesn't apply "in accordance with the law", and "for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others". Where else would those conditions apply if not here?

OP posts:
zanahoria · 22/06/2025 18:12

"Imagine a trans man who has fully transitioned and is every inch a man."

Well that would require a lot of imagination, those I have seen tend to resemble boys

zanahoria · 22/06/2025 18:14

Iamnotalemming · 22/06/2025 17:58

Just reading that summary of their arguments made me feel incredibly tired and sad. Women just want their stuff back. Why is this even controversial. Why on earth would it be illegal for lesbians to want to have a female only space??!!

on the plus side, if that is the best they can do then they have no chance of reversing the court decision

shuggles · 22/06/2025 18:20

zanahoria · 22/06/2025 18:12

"Imagine a trans man who has fully transitioned and is every inch a man."

Well that would require a lot of imagination, those I have seen tend to resemble boys

They generally have beards and are bald, so they don't resemble boys.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 22/06/2025 18:21

zanahoria · 22/06/2025 18:12

"Imagine a trans man who has fully transitioned and is every inch a man."

Well that would require a lot of imagination, those I have seen tend to resemble boys

That phrase is niggling at me. I can’t decide if it makes me want to sing

”I am the very model of a modern major genderal”

or

“And ev’ry last inch of me’s covered with hair!”

onceandneveragain · 22/06/2025 18:25

Trans women have been placed in women’s hospitals wards for over 50 years without issue.

I see we're at the 'bare faced lie' standard of argument now given the famous case that peaked a lot of people where a woman was told she couldn't have been raped in hospital because her attacker identified as a woman
Hospital says patient could not have been raped because alleged attacker was transgender - Scottish Daily Express

I'm interested to know where they got the 'more than 50 years' figure from out their arse but either way I can't imagine there were many transwomen on female wards in 1974...

MyAmpleSheep · 22/06/2025 18:33

It's a case of "apart from all the issues, there have been no issues", isn't it?

If we're continuing the Monty Python theme, then I point to "what have the Romans ever done for us?"

OP posts:
Soontobe60 · 22/06/2025 18:33

Sheesh! Some people are just plain bonkers aren’t they!

PaterPower · 22/06/2025 18:41

zanahoria · 22/06/2025 18:12

"Imagine a trans man who has fully transitioned and is every inch a man."

Well that would require a lot of imagination, those I have seen tend to resemble boys

Every inch… except their:

  • lack of a penis (butchered skin fashioned into a ‘phallus’ doesn't count)
  • as above re testicles
  • lack of an Adam’s apple
  • ovaries and fallopian tubes
  • pelvis shape
  • hormonal balance
  • chromosomal makeup
  • body fat distribution

and probably a few others I’ve forgotten to include. Yep… EVERY INCH a man.

TheOtherRaven · 22/06/2025 18:43

Good grief, that's going to be quick and easy to manage, isn't it?

I see the total inability to understand 'proportional' is lingering on in zombie form.... no, it's NOT about whether people can be nasty to the poor man in the one specific situation being considered, it's purely whether or not a single sex provision is there at all .

If there is, it was proportional to create that single sex provision.

If it was created, this invokes the legal sex discrimination that makes this allowable.

This protection for this sex group is only possible IF no one of the opposite sex is permitted. At all. Regardless of their identity or feelings. Because the whole purpose was no one of the opposite sex to meet the needs of the people in that provision. And because no one member of the opposite sex can be an exception without removing that protection and meaning it is now discriminatory to exclude any of the opposite sex. If it's one, it has to be all.

It is not possible for women to have ANY single sex provisions unless all men of all descriptions are kept out of them. Men do not matter more than women in this. The same goes for homosexual people's groups and provisions.

Other facilities can be and should be additionally provided for those who do not wish to use those for their sex according to the judgment.

(Sorry for those who know, just feeling that this persistent misinformation needs to be explained over, and over, and over, and over, as often and as in as many places as possible for those able to understand it.)

And the ongoing total inability to understand that others have rights and needs too. There won't be a point of understanding or reconciliation for some, the only thing that is going to work here is strong boundaries and a lot of stuck record persistence.

Hoardasurass · 22/06/2025 18:44

Nameychangington · 22/06/2025 17:05

There needs to be a new example showing that trans women who breastfeed are protected by the pregnancy and maternity protections on the basis of case law.

What case law is this?

There's none as only women are protected under pregnancy and maternity.

Arran2024 · 22/06/2025 18:49

It's the old toilet police argument again. Even though every case of speeding, or not wearing a seat belt, or using a mobile phone at the wheel, or benefit fraud isn't prosecuted, but that doesn't mean we dont have laws and expect people to adhere to them, and know there is a chance they will be caught.

Toseland · 22/06/2025 18:49

Nameychangington · 22/06/2025 17:05

There needs to be a new example showing that trans women who breastfeed are protected by the pregnancy and maternity protections on the basis of case law.

What case law is this?

Transwomen who breastfeed should be immediately arrested for child abuse, pedophilia, offences against the person sexual exploitation and poisoning. Utter #!*£#@!!