Reflections on Trans Arguments

[LimeFinch]

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

I wish this was talked about more. So many families in turmoil and scared to speak about this - despite the monumental harm happening to some young people.

Weaponising the young to fight a battle they're just not equipped to navigate is unforgivable. Yet we're still standing by watching as so many groomers supported by useful idiots, target children - in schools and everywhere children gather.

Parenting's the toughest job in the world - and can be frightening at time. We must speak up and support parents trying to navigate this - not silence them with threats and emotional blackmail.

Also, when people go to University, they can become quite rigid in their thinking and supporting the 'right' ideas. So when they come home in the holidays, they then 'educate' their family.

Nothing is more fun than sitting next to someone who is looking up on their phone to see if a normal phrase used in conversation is bigoted or not.

My niece became a trans activist while at uni. Her younger sister started uni in Sept 2020 and spent her first year online. She is much more gender critical but that may also be due to being in a STEM course, her older sister was arts based. Also the trans activist is neurodivergent. My sister has to pre warn people not to bring up the subject of trans ideology when in her company because she becomes over animated. My other DSis, now no longer with us, had a phd in genetics so you can imagine the problems this caused. She does seem to be less militant now she is in her mid 20s and has recently been travelling for 12 mnths which has exposed her to a broader set of opinions.

My DS is cautiously critical but, because they had a M to F student in his year through senior school, is probably much more understanding. I recently bumped into the M to F and they have definitely followed a gender neutral path and I would describe them more as male Goth than a trans female. I think that they have worked things out. They were not a trans campaigner and intent on radicalising their fellow students. Also they are all shit scared of being cancelled.

I do believe that when OPs make such a list they are mansplaining in the way most men like to do. They forget that they are talking to grown women who have more lived experience, a fully mature frontal lobe and have probably been gaslighted for years by men.

We need to be able to hold the threat of not voting over them NOW, to get the commitment so that we CAN vote for them.

That's a point I can accept however it bothers me that I never see any real criticism of the reactionary right wing on here. It's always 'but Labour/the left are bastards'.

Right, I hereby declare that I hate the reactionary right wing and all it stands for. They're a pile of bastards, Trump is the devil etc etc etc.

If I genuflect enough can we move onto how the left (for most of us the natural voting choice) have driven away voters by being, well, quite shite, on this issue and others?

Or do I need to do a few more Hail Labours?

Because the reactionary right is currently not in power with a very comfortable majority, Labour is and it is their policies that get critisised.

Right. Well I could do with a workout so I'll chase the moving goalposts a little more...

First however let me start by saying that last time I went round this route with a poster who posted very much like you do, she used what I'm about to say as an excuse to accuse me of being basically a Nazi apologist and it stopped any rational discussion stone dead. Not on my part, I hasten to add but on hers, she literally repeated that slur pretty much every single post afterwards, not just to me but to everyone she disagreed with, inflating it as she went from one comment in one post taken out of context to "posters are saying..." . But with optimism in your comprehension/good faith I'm going to say it anway.

The reactionary right wing are who they are. They don't hide it. They make a virtue of it. They are putting out a stall for people who want that. What am I going to do, point out that some of their support is sexist? Anti-immigration? Racist? We know that. (Although I will also say that if you think the only people who vote Reform are white, you must live in a very white and/or middle class bubble)

So what's the point of me saying "Reform are bad mmmkay"? They already know people like me think that and they don't care. All I'd be doing is virtue signalling to other people who already think Reform are bad that I have all the right beliefs. It's performative and pointless.

What I want is to have a credible Left party to vote for. That's why I'm talking about what the Left is getting wrong and why I care so much about the Left fucking this up so badly, because they are making themselves into parties I cannot vote for due to their utterly craven betrayal of women. It's hardly rocket science.

How many other people I disagree with and have nothing to do with do I need to publicly denounce before I'm allowed to talk about what I want to talk about?

I'm not sure you understand quite how much bandwidth this fight is taking up. Writing to and visiting MPs and councillors and service providers. Pushing back at employers, ever so carefully so as to avoid forever being labelled a bigotted terf. Researching and arming oneself with facts and evidence for the fight on social media. Standing on high streets handing out leaflets. Trying to support woman-only and lesbian groups and services financially or otherwise. Responding to consultations. Making FOI requests of public bodies. Crowdfunding and, for some very brave women, taking part in court cases. Constantly watching the political parties, the LGBT+ lobby groups, committee meetings and Union conferences for the next method by which they are going to try to sneak gender instead of sex past us. Negotiating excrutiatingly difficult conversations with our children and young people, themselves terrified of being outed as 'transphobes'. Trying to support friends whose children are succumbing to the insidious grooming.
The Greens and Lib Dems are lost. The Tories and Reform are just not on my radar on this issue. You watch them, by all means, but don't you dare berate me for being laser-focussed on watching Labour.

Even the Reactionary Right Wing are currently thinking 'Fuck Me Labour are a bunch of evil cnuts, making us look pretty reasonable at the moment'.

I don't even know what is Right and Left any more.

That's why I'm talking about what the Left is getting wrong and why I care so much about the Left fucking this up so badly, because they are making themselves into parties I cannot vote for due to their utterly craven betrayal of women. It's hardly rocket science.

and it shouldn’t strain the imagination too much to understand that just because i think labour and the left are failing doesn’t mean im going to vote for reform or the tories

i mean it shouldn’t but apparently it does…pathetic

To be blunt- as you guys love being- if you vote for Reform or the Tories in the next election, or abstain and facilitate them getting in, it means embracing a whole bunch of truly unpalatable measures that will really hurt women and the country as a whole. Is that really worth it?

As some of us were saying before the last General Election; Labour have no right to make it impossible for women who have a conscience to vote for them, then blame women for not voting for them.
If we did vote for them, we'd be used as proof that the policies are popular. Stop blaming us for the consequences of stupid policies. We aren't the ones that started this mess.

Quite.

It's quite simple for Labour to get left wing gender critical women to vote for them.

Instead of attacking women for not complying and going along with policies that are not in their best interests, how this novel thought - and Labour made sure their policies are pro-women and not misogynistic claptrap.

It's really not hard.

Left wing women WANT to vote for Labour. Stop making it impossible for them to do so.

Once again it's framed as women being in the wrong and not the fuckwits running the Labour party.

No more after this from Lime? Apart from things which had to be deleted?
Maybe @LimeFinch is reading the Skrmetti judgement. Of the For Women Scotland judgement. Or the Cass Report. Or Time to Think. Or Trans. Or Material Girls.
Wait, no, that would be.....What's the word..... EDUCATION.

Heard a commentator say left and right has actually been replaced by authoritarian and liberal. Oddly the hard left TRA types are authoritarian. Requiring others to comply with their demands see -“no debate” and harsh policing of anyone that dares to dissent. Like those poor parents on this thread.

Who are the “other guys”? We don’t have a two party system in this country. And I’m sorry, no party deserves my vote and loyalty just so the “other guys” don’t win.

Those last bits are almost exactly the conversation I had on my doorstep with the labour canvasser last time round.

Because conceding what is best for us in the name of the greater good is just what is fucking always expected of us isn’t it?! And it’s just more fucking gender stereotype bollocks.

I for one believe that protecting women’s rights and child safeguarding IS what is best for society though. And I will not be emotionally blackmailed into crossing my personal red line and voting for Labour until they commit to women’s sex based rights.

Most of us I suspect have been left wing and Labour voters. all or lives. We are not supporters of Reform or the Cons so why talk about them when it’s Labour who are currently in power and who are letting us down. When the PM cannot answer a very simple question, “What is a woman” or “can only women have a cervix” then they deserve nothing but our contempt.

Unlike you I have never voted Conservative when it would probably have been to my personal benefit. I have voted Labour sometimes against my own interests because I thought I was voting for certain principles. But I’m not going to be sorry about having this personal line that I will not cross. Labour can bloody well work to get my vote back, I owe them nothing. And you inferring that that makes me right wing by default? I have no more fucks to give and ‘right wing’ can join all the other slurs thrown our way. I have nieces whose future I am thinking of as well as my own future.

Just think of the poor LibDem or Green voters that are sex realist. They are truly buggered.

@LimeFinch your post is long and earnest but shows that you are not well-read on this subject.

(You are free to speak your mind on here - as you see- but you do need to bring reliable evidence if you want to be believed.)

I see a lot of references to previous threads and posters. I don't know what other posters have written - I'm not interested in slurs, blaming or guilt tripping. What is the best way to bar the way to the parties that are the most toxic? For me that's hands down Reform and the Tories (who fucked up the country for 14 years and purged any centrists from their ranks) As for being more focused on those who should do better or who should be allies... I do get the logic and the need to hold them to a higher standard but I'll stick with bashing those I consider to be the most direct threat overall.

it shouldn’t strain the imagination too much to understand that just because i think labour and the left are failing doesn’t mean i'm going to vote for reform or the tories
i mean it shouldn’t but apparently it does…pathetic
I have pointed out, abstaining also contributes to the victory of whoever gets in. It's merely stating a fact.

Thanks to the time I've spent recently engaging in this debate on this thread and others, I can see the depths of anger within GC feminism. I don't see where that can lead politically though. As a PP outlined, all parties recognise gender and only Reform seems to not give a fuck - except that they do, very much, and in the very restrictive and reactionary manner of women like pink and babies. Anyway, you all know that. If there was a GE tomorrow, I feel extremely pessimistic because the landscape is so polarised, the only winners can be the populists. I don't care about blame, just the result.
Have a good day all.

The working class voter (the majority of the electorate) are turning to Reform because they are frightened. They are working harder with less to show for it. They can't afford decent housing. When they're ill, the NHS is failing them, and they lack the cushion of the privileged to ride the storm. The party that should be centering their interests has earned a reputation for caring more about the luxury beliefs of advantaged middle class youth than their less sparkly struggles. When people are queuing for the foodbank, they dont want to see their MP fighting for Bernard's 'rights' to use the ladies. If Labour want to win back the electorate they need to focus on the bread before the already well feds demands for roses.

I think my depth of anger is that the centric/left parties could have clear plans for keeping gender and sex separate and get that middle ground in (single sex and mixed sex options) but they actively don't and with that give the populist parties ammo to make them look stupid and win votes. It is infuriating that women have to decide to throw away their rights or throw away their rights. It is not necessary if politicians would actually stop with their activism.

It is 'Harris is they/them, Trump is for you' all over again

Anyway, you all know that. If there was a GE tomorrow, I feel extremely pessimistic because the landscape is so polarised, the only winners can be the populists.

Just for reference, a populist is 'a person, especially a politician, who strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.'

Gosh, what a turn up for the books. Those ordinary people and their ordinary thoughts, that want ordinary things like to have a system in place that their taxes paid for, police that turn up to investigate crimes and to be able to afford houses and to see a doctor when ill. What a bunch of bastards.