Reflections on Trans Arguments

[LimeFinch]

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

So what you seem to be saying is women should vote for a party that hates them or be labelled right wing bigots because at least Labour would never try to take away PIP payments, winter fuel payments, make benefit cuts, raise taxes defund the police would they? In what way have Labour done anything to benefit women? Not saying any other party has, but why would I as a woman vote for a party that hates me?

@StandFirm

It's the 1 before the zeros because if a party is so enslaved by the hyperbole and hysteria of the TRAs utterly unreasonable demand that sex be unrecognised in law and society that they are prepared to lose an election rather than say to half of the population "we will protect your legal and social existence" how the hell can we trust them on anything else?

It's not so much a red line as the canary in the coal mine. You seem to think "well, they'l fuck over women and that's a shame but they'll look after everyone else at least" . I think if they get away with fucking over women why would they stop? They'll start with women but eventually they will fuck over everyone based on who currently controls the "purity" narrative.

"Reasonable" is what got us into this mess. "Reasonable" means you get fuck all because you don't make a fuss and the unreasonable ones do.

This needs to be sorted out with a proper commitment from Labour or even the Greens (colation) before the next election so that women can vote for them or they WILL be putting the country at risk of a Reform government. The solution to this is simple but it is in their hands not ours. So we have to take Reasonable off the table so they have no choice except to sort this out properly.

For those who consider all the issues that affect WAGs wellbeing and still decide to go with the Tories or Reform, or abstain so that those parties win - that's obviously their prerogative but then they have to own up to the fact that they are indeed right wing.

@StandFirm no, I absofuckinglootly do not. The left losing their collective shit and deciding to espouse a demented, anti-women ideology such that I can't possibly vote for them means jack shit for my personal political orientation.

I'm still, by every measure, left wing and libertarian-leaning. The 'Left' left me, I haven't moved.

Stop flinging around nonsense labels and tired tropes. Go talk to Labour idealogues instead, they're the problem.

Or what about: Labour could come to their senses, clearly commit to women's rights, science and the safeguarding of children and become a party again that women can vote for with good conscience?

Someone telling Women that if they don't vote Labour they are Far Right and it turns out - they are the Tory voter. Oh my days. You cannot make this shit up.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

Yup.

why would I vote for any political party who have proven themselves to be craven, credulous and without principles?

One good thing that has come out the mess of the Scottish Government is some principled MSP's (from various parties) doing cross party working for the best outcome. That is what I think should happen more often.
.

are you serious? Labour supporting women? what are you on?

Ever the optimist :)

You seem to think "well, they'l fuck over women and that's a shame but they'll look after everyone else at least" . I think if they get away with fucking over women why would they stop? They'll start with women but eventually they will fuck over everyone based on who currently controls the "purity" narrative.

No. It's a case of being sure Reform will NOT look after women- or anyone else for that matter. Ultimately I distrust them AND today's Tories much more than Labour. You talk of purity narrative but can you not see that a purity narrative is on full display here too?

To be blunt- as you guys love being- if you vote for Reform or the Tories in the next election, or abstain and facilitate them getting in, it means embracing a whole bunch of truly unpalatable measures that will really hurt women and the country as a whole. Is that really worth it?

If you'd read what I wrote properly, you'd understand that I am precisely not tribal. I vote for pragmatism over ideology. I would not vote Tory nowadays because they have gone the way of the republican party in the US: toxic.

And again.

We need to be able to hold the threat of not voting over them NOW, to get the commitment so that we CAN vote for them.

If they believe we will vote for them anyway, then we have no leverage.

But hey, if this worries you so much, go and get the message out on trans Reddit, Bluesky etc that the TERFs are fucking crazy and they will burn it all down, so all those rational reasonable TRAs need to bite the bullet and tell their LGBTQIA++ Labour, Green LibDem groups that they need to compromise, they have to accept a manifesto that commits to female legitimacy and rights, maybe even to repealing the GRA, as the cost to the greater good of keeping the really bad guys out.

Go fight the brave fight and send me a link to your posts, I will be cheering for you!

Ah, yes the 'well, at least we're not the Tories' strategy. So inspirational, so motivational. I'm wiping away a tear as I write this.

Given neither labour nor greens nor tories actually have women’s interests at heart it actually makes it easier to vote because that’s one item that they are all bad with in different ways so I can ignore it

because vote spoiling won’t change anything

Because I am also pragmatic, and I can see that if I want Labour or a Left coalition to protect women's rights I won't get it by telling them I'm happy for them to sacrifice women's rights for the greater good. There is no reason whatsoever we cannot have left wing parties that respect women, it's not an extreme position, and we should not be blackmailed into it.

All this guilt-tripping of women without any demands on Labour to get a grip. Why?
@

👏👏👏👏💯

And it’s all sounding very very familiar

we got almost exactly the same posts before the election last year

I would LOVE to see this Reddit post.

I will decide who I vote for, who I will not vote for and whether I will spoil my ballot or not.

Some random poster's lecture on the internet is not going to hold any weight when I am making this decision.

Yep I noticed that. Different name, different poster - perhaps - but very much the same rhetoric and the same language.

But still. If someone links to a few posts in the Genderist social media (which to be frank is most of it) adhorting people for whom trans "rights" (aka cross sex privileges over women) are a red line to send the message to the Left parties that unity is more important and they'll accept TERF-friendly policies for the greater good, that would carry a lot of weight with me in terms of believing this is anything more than just "it's easier to fuck over the women than the TRAs"

To be blunt- as you guys love being- if you vote for Reform or the Tories in the next election, or abstain and facilitate them getting in, it means embracing a whole bunch of truly unpalatable measures that will really hurt women and the country as a whole. Is that really worth it?

Seriously, what unpalatable measures would be worse than eliminating the sex-class of women so that we can NEVER demand considerations or rights as a class again? What would be worse than sterilising vulnerable children? You talk about defending democracy, but the progressive Left helped to start dismantling that with its chilling effect on free speech and support of #nodebate.

I don't really understand what the point is now though. The next election is probably four years away.

Perhaps for the enjoyment of the scold?

Yes. If I recall correctly there was a particular poster over numerous threads last year, twisting people's posts, determined that anyone raising any concerns about labour were right wing bigots etc. As was anyone mentioning ethnicity in terms of the grooming gangs - actual fascists dontchaknow.

I briefly thought of them when listening to Baroness Louise Casey talking about her report on the rape grooming gangs. Don't suppose they'll have noticed - insight and self awareness not a strong point for them. 😑