What do people get from coming here to 'scold' us?

[CassOle]

My first (not completely serious) thoughts are: their arse handed to them and screenshots.

However, is there more to it?

Why do some long term posters come back again and again with the same arguments that haven't worked before? Do they think that it might work this time?

Then there are the 'my Trans friends are lovely' scolders. Do they really think that we should forget safeguarding, biological reality, single-sex provision etc. becuase they have lovely friends?

Lastly, the thread ploppers. If we are lucky, they might even reply. The one last night might have been getting sexual kicks from it, but we have had other ploppers who just appeared to want to tell us how mean and nasty we are.

None of these (that I have seen) have brought good, well reasoned arguments to back up their points. Maybe that is what causes people to scold and run, or plop and run, as when the arguments cannot stand up to scrutiny (or they have the screenshots), they stop posting.

This then brings me back to the long term posters who are TWAW. I would not like it if they were driven off this board, as it is a public board and as long as the T&C are kept to, they have every right to post. It must be hard posting against the main opinion on any matter, so they must get 'something' from it. Maybe Chris et al will be kind enough to explain this from their point of view?

Agree with all this.

I also think quite a lot of the drive-by young uns are doing the Mumsnet equivalent of prank calling. I do hope so otherwise I'll have to just pity them.

Narcissistic supply is probably a big driver. Any attention is better than no attention for those stuck in a Look At Me! Look At Me! stage of early development.

it’s still no. Two men shagging are not lesbians just because they say theyre women

Well quite.

However, the TW who are determined to force lesbians (using the correct definition of lesbians as female homosexuals) to accept them as sexual partners are not remotely interested in relationships with other TW - odd that.

I'd argue that there's never a sign I've seen of being interested in relationship with a lesbian either in things like the cotton ceiling debates where men have actually met to work out how to get the knickers off non consenting women. Merely uncontested provision of sex from her.

A relationship would require managing to see her as a human being with some regard and energy put towards managing to give a fuck about her consent, feelings, experience, pleasure, mutual enjoyment, personality, that kind of thing.

Can I answer that one?

Because rapey.

The boundary of women saying no. It's always the desired target.

It's like the women who say they will gladly strip off and validate men with their bodies in third space changing rooms. Their bodies won't do. It's the non consenting women's bodies that are the goal.

And it is bodies, no other part of the women are remotely of interest.

For the same reason that many women like gay porn, and slashfic I assume.

I’m really enjoying @TheOtherRaven’s vegan analogy in response to the person who was insisting that cool, laid-back non-bigoted lesbians don’t worry about words having meanings.

I’m now imagining just how the vegans I know would react to being served a big juicy beef steak instead of a cauliflower steak in a vegan restaurant, and being told they should be ashamed of themselves for not being happy with their order because lots of “vegans” in the cattle industry adore it. I can’t imagine it going over very well. Their response would be: “If you want to run an omnivore restaurant, go ahead! But why would you try to make it so hard for vegans to relax and trust the ingredients in an advertised vegan restaurant…?”

This is the extraordinary paradox at the heart of all of this.

How kind is it really, to tell people lies about how the world sees them?

I think that is genuinely a related issue and problem- the reason young trans-identifying lesbian women, who want to date other young trans-identifying lesbian women, turn up in gay men's spaces, upsetting the gay men and then getting upset themselves because the men, who want to meet (and more) other men, don't welcome them.

Lying to these confused children, leading them to think fantasy is real life, is not kind to them or to any of the people whose lives they disrupt.

I would honestly welcome a civil conversation. I think that trans-identifying people should be protected from harassment and discrimination, I think they can dress how they want, call themselves what they want, and have relationships with any consenting adults they want. But the reality is that they cannot change sex. Female only spaces exist to protect women’s safety, privacy and dignity. When you allow male people into those spaces they no longer serve that purpose. Why are you okay with that? If trans-identifying people were campaigning for their own spaces I could get on board with that, so why is that not an acceptable solution?

Exactly.

Any claim that country A is better for women than country B relies on a shared definition of both 'better' and 'women'. And on robust collection of the relevant data to support the claim. Belgium, for example, has a zero rate of MVAWG - not because their men and transwomen are impeccably behaved but because they simply stopped collecting sex data on offenders.

And as for the idea that transwomen are 'obviously' more disadvantaged than women in all ways - and therefore including them in the female states will make gender gaps worse - that really needs data to back it up!

Does a man who works for a company with a large gender pay gap, and who transitions age 50, have lower pay than a woman of the same age? If so, has he always been paid less or did the company institute a pay cut the instant he changed his HR recordto female? Are transwomen murdered at a higher rate than women? (We know they're not.) Do they suffer greater maternity penalties in their careers? (That one really should be obvious.)

I also kind of see MN as the equivalent of an open door village hall with regular posters sat in a civilised manner and taking turns in conversation and welcome to all.

Reddit et al are a venue with bouncers, locked doors and a policy that states 'dissenters will be kicked out' as well as as having ego driven management (moderators).

Scolders are playing a sort of knock a door run that wouldn't at all be possible on other forums that they normally inhabit.

I think it was knitting groups.

Thereby throwing every woman who likes knitting in a single sex environment, under the bus.

And, simultaneously, completely failing to understand autogynephilia, and the nature of it, of which knitting is a prime example.

(Eg See Jane Fae, knitting in every interview he ever had, whilst simultaneously campaigning for extreme pornography and lowering the legal age of the participants.)

There's nothing stopping men and women having mixed sex knitting groups, for the love of Goddd.

But if a woman, for whatever reason, from being traumatised around men, to being married to an AGP, wants one, then fuck her.

i'm just editing this to add, that it is so often the absolutely most vulnerable of women who need single sex spaces.

Women who would, say, like to join a social group that was female only, with a craft involved. It is THEY who can't. The women who don't care, like that poster, can do it all the fucking live long day. But she's denying the opportunity to women who are more vulnerable.

if you are segregating on the basis of sex, there's a bloody reason for it.

👏

👏

Knitting groups. Interesting. Why wouldnt there be mixed sex knitting groups? 🤔

That’s a very interesting point you make there, these men are not interested in the pick me’s, it’s too easy, there’s no power in it for them. I wonder if the pick me’s have worked that out and it’s why they’re prepared to throw other women under the bus?

Women who would, say, like to join a social group that was female only, with a craft involved. It is THEY who can't. The women who don't care, like that poster, can do it all the fucking live long day. But she's denying the opportunity to women who are more vulnerable.

And it's gleeful, derisive denying.

The woman's reasons and feelings are jeered at and dismissed, the withholding of a single sex space from her becomes a righteous punishment. For what? Being vulnerable? Saying she is vulnerable? Not masochistically and performatively sacrificing herself for men? Or is it a signal from the jeering woman to this particular group of men of 'look, I'm such a good girl I will harm my own kind in loyalty to you sir'? There is a fair amount of performative spitting on/harming others to prove what is generally called 'love' within this movement.

One wonders what draws women to this particular kind of man. I have many men in my life, they are emotionally and socially healthy people who do not treat anyone, including women, in this way and would not tolerate, never mind desire this kind of servile OTT mummying, but these women seem drawn to the kind of man who does like a fly to a honey jar.

I have not read TFT but I know some lovely trans people. Some are classic HSTS but some have a fetish. All I tragedy Still don’t think they are women - still will have a drink with them 🤷‍♀️. Still can’t change sexual and most of it is a lie

Exactly, I think the point is that if we could get past the nonsensical claims and overreach we could maybe find some common ground with these men.

That’s a very interesting point you make there, these men are not interested in the pick me’s, it’s too easy, there’s no power in it for them. I wonder if the pick me’s have worked that out and it’s why they’re prepared to throw other women under the bus?

I don't think the pick me's/I am a good little 'cis' woman have worked it out, or if they have they are being wifully blind to it because to realise just how much contempt these men hold them in, how they look on them with disdain for being so easily manipulated would be very difficult to accept.

These men make it perfectly obvious they are not interested in the slightest in the pick me's since these men put all their energy and time into the women who say 'No' and refuse to bow down to them.

These men make it perfectly obvious they are not interested in the slightest in the pick me's since these men put all their energy and time into the women who say 'No' and refuse to bow down to them.

Also maybe if you treat a pick-me well then they might stop trying to impress - treat them mean, keep them keen

https://www.context.news/socioeconomic-inclusion/denmarks-decade-of-self-id-cools-debate-on-trans-rights

I’m not sure this is the website of an organisation that we can all rely on for impartiality…

The Thomson Reuters Foundation infamously sponsored for the 2019 Dentons document:
“Only Adults? Good Practices in Legal Gender Recognition for Youth“ which can be found here in all it’s gory detail: https://contraelborradodelasmujeres.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/IGLYO_lobby-trans.pdf

And was reported on by The Spectator here:
https://archive.ph/Tnzi1

Containing such gems as:
‘It is recognised that the requirement for parental consent or the consent of a legal guardian can be restrictive and problematic for minors.’
and
‘states should take action against parents who are obstructing the free development of a young trans person’s identity in refusing to give parental authorisation when required.’
and
‘In Ireland, Denmark and Norway, changes to the law on legal gender recognition were put through at the same time as other more popular reforms such as marriage equality legislation. This provided a veil of protection, particularly in Ireland, where marriage equality was strongly supported, but gender identity remained a more difficult issue to win public support for.’

Can you offer another more reliable/impartial source to support your argument on self ID please?

@KnottyAuty

Wow those quotes are unbelievable

‘states should take action against parents who are obstructing the free development of a young trans person’s identity in refusing to give parental authorisation when required.’

Is there some part of the document were it says that the sate should take responsibility for the harm caused if a young person changes their mind?

How much is a young person's fertility and sexual health worth?

Interestingly MBM have had a good look at Denmark and maybe as expected have a slightly less rosy take. But this does include a lot more facts:

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/06/18/lessons-from-denmark/

In 2014 “in Denmark a closed consultation took place with 28 organisations, which elicited 9 responses (we were unable to find evidence of a public consultation)… the Bill passed through Parliament in 43 days, prompting some members of the Gender Equality Committee to express disquiet at the legislative pace”.

And

“We have been unable to find evidence that any mechanism was put in place for evaluating the impact of the change on the experience of women and girls, for example in relation to single sex services and spaces. This may reflect the wider context: in 2014 the European Agency for Fundamental Rights ranked Denmark as the EU country with the highest occurrence of male physical violence and sexual assault against women. Discussing the hostile reaction in Denmark to this report, Leine, Mikkelsen and Sen(2019) argue that “the invizibilisation of Danish male violence, as well as the projection of sexual aggression onto minority communities, produces a peculiar politics of denial and denialism in Denmark.””

Not what I was expecting but how awful.