What do people get from coming here to 'scold' us?

[CassOle]

My first (not completely serious) thoughts are: their arse handed to them and screenshots.

However, is there more to it?

Why do some long term posters come back again and again with the same arguments that haven't worked before? Do they think that it might work this time?

Then there are the 'my Trans friends are lovely' scolders. Do they really think that we should forget safeguarding, biological reality, single-sex provision etc. becuase they have lovely friends?

Lastly, the thread ploppers. If we are lucky, they might even reply. The one last night might have been getting sexual kicks from it, but we have had other ploppers who just appeared to want to tell us how mean and nasty we are.

None of these (that I have seen) have brought good, well reasoned arguments to back up their points. Maybe that is what causes people to scold and run, or plop and run, as when the arguments cannot stand up to scrutiny (or they have the screenshots), they stop posting.

This then brings me back to the long term posters who are TWAW. I would not like it if they were driven off this board, as it is a public board and as long as the T&C are kept to, they have every right to post. It must be hard posting against the main opinion on any matter, so they must get 'something' from it. Maybe Chris et al will be kind enough to explain this from their point of view?

I speak as an Irishwoman

Tell that to the women who are locked up with men in our women's prisons. This include men incarcerated for sexual offences.

It seems that this is not something deemed important enough to capture in the metrics for women's wellbeing and equality.

It's possible they're starting from a different place in terms of the level of entitlement from men, the level of predatory sexual behaviour against women from men, and the level of sexual deviancy among men.

I think there is a genuine belief by some of the first time scolders that we are in favour of Genfer stereotypes abd think ppl should conform to boys wear trousers and like footbsll snd girls wear skirts snd like pink. It’s a fundamental misunderstanding because the GC is basically the only thing that makes someone a woman is being born a juvenile human female and growing into an adult one. Outside of that wear what you like, have long hair, short hair, shave it all off, wear stilettos or rocket boots, watch all the football or not, drink beer or champagne, fuck who you like as long as it’s legal. Many women hete grew up in
tje 70s/80s where so called ‘gender bending’ was a thing. We’re really not shocked by men in dresses or make up

no man can ever be a woman though and that’s the bottom line

I see suggestions is already doing their usual of pulling everything towards their self like we haven’t heard everything suggestions says a gazillion times

it’s still no. Two men shagging are not lesbians just because they say theyre women

The article about Denmark is interesting because firstly it seems to be premised on the idea that Denmark is more successful specifically because in other countries trans rights have been 'rowed back' - in the UK they havent been: that is a widespread misunderstanding.
Secondly, where self-id is used, it's of course impossible to drill down into statistics about whether self-identified transwomen have harmed women
Males are of.course more violent and more criminal than females, but if the crimes of a transwoman are listed as the crimes.of a woman, statistics are impossible to rely on.
Thirdly, it still (and I know I'm harping on) don't see an argument as to why males should be allowed to use the rights specifically granted to females.
The fact that other people allow it, or that other people dont care (the idea in this article was that the debate was less heated) doesn't prove that it's the right thing. Partly the debate has become heated in the UK because there has been more light allowed to it than in some other places.

I’d welcome more civil debate from them. This is the only forum of its kind that I’m aware of, and unlike Reddit it isn’t spewing hate at dissenters. TRAs probably come on here for a variety of reasons and I’d like to think the more reasonable ones might, in time, rethink their positions. If nothing else at least they are not in an echo chamber.

I don't know much about Denmark but from this article, a trans woman convicted of rape has to carry out their sentence in a male prison and it is written in law that intimate searches must be by the same sex.
We have had to fight bitterly for both these things amongst substantial backlash and accusations of transphobia.
So either Denmark is a lot more 'transphobic' than trans rights campaigners seem to think or here in the UK, women have had to fight for basic common sense rights that the Danes already have. It's one or the other.
https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1385447/

they're accepted for who they are

But you're not accepting them for who they are. You're lying to them and everyone else about who they are.

Maybe in their fantasy they convince themselves that, somehow, this time they will win. That they’ll deliver that one brilliant argument and we will all say ‘OMG we never thought of menz feelings, oh my we must be kind’ or whatever and become proper handmaidens.

Of course we don’t. Instead we present evidence, ask for receipts and point out flaws. But a man can dream.

Definitely.
Ime, not just TRAs but all men (let me rephrase that - all kinds of men) get something out of invading women's spaces or even pretending to BE women.
(And I'm not being rude about TRAs here, I mean pretending to be female online.)

Thé scolders see it as a bastion of sex realists ( or maybe we should say, people who are prepared to identify themselves as sex realists , because I believe that at least four out of five adults are sex realists in their own lives). It is necessary to storm the bastion, to hurl missiles ( insults) at its walls, to try to undermine the walls with specious arguments , to surround and besiege it so that the enemy cannot sally forth and put you to flight….

But these walls are strong, because they are built on truth and reality, not on the shifting sands of neurosis, unearned privilege and malice.

Indeed. When you delve into the details of articles repeatedly posted on here in a vain attempt to persuade women to pander to men with a fetish who claim to be women, there's a lot of nuance and things that don't add up.

Fortunately most women see through "if only you were kind and believed it when we tell you we're really women and must undress alongside your teenage daughters" schtick.

Now if only the scolders addressed the vulnerability of all the children caught up in this ideology, they'd find something in common with women on here. But they're rarely to be seen on threads about safeguarding, children and the emerging scandals related to their treatment.

A country that allows gender self-Id cannot return any valid statistics about the treatment of biologically female people or biologically male people, because neither group can be identified, so the outcomes cannot be measured.

So those graphs are meaningless.

That isn't an ideological opinion, it's a statement of fact.

This is amazingly self glorifying and fantastical

It's Mumsnet not helms deep 😂

One of the charts shown by suggestionsplease1
shows the 'Top ten countries in the Gender Gap Index' and whether or not they allow gender self-ID, and suggestionsplease1 asked
why otherwise would the best countries in the world to be a women be putting in place gender self ID, and why have they not slipped down the ranks in all the major measures of women’s wellbeing and equality with men in all the years since their doing so?

I wouldn't use that chart in future, I don't think it helps your argument 'that the countries doing the best for women are the countries that are also doing best for transpeople'.

I note that Ireland, which is officially and enthusiastically full-on TWAW, gender recognition certs, self-ID etc etc. is a very poor second-last on the list, below Namibia and Nicaragua.

Women's well-being and equality have taken a nosedive in Ireland since the Gender Recognition Act was brought in, and 'sex' was replaced in equality legislation by 'gender'. Sex is no longer a protected characteristic.

Ireland is a text-book example of 'doing best for transpeople' coinciding with - and in many cases specifically causing - a diminution of women's rights.

I could also refer to the damage done to the lesbian and gay community in Ireland by the addition of the T for transgender - things have gone downhill from a position of widespread acceptance of the lesbian and gay community as evidenced by the success of the Marriage Equality referendum ten years ago. There is now a lot of unease at the demands of the TQ++ part of the LGBTQ+++ 'community' - I put it in inverted commas because LGB and TQ++ have different characteristics, different identities, different issues, and putting them together into a 'community' doesn't make sense - as we are finding out to our cost.

I'm one of the lesbians that has absolutely no interest in men who want to identify as lesbian, or the women who say they are lesbian and who wish to date them. I think it's like someone telling me they're a vegan in a 'I am vegan' t shirt while scoffing steak, but whatever, live and let live.

I am absolutely NOT putting up with not being allowed to hold women-only lesbian events or spaces because men who want to play at being lesbians and are desperate to sleep with women who identify as lesbians feel entitled to control, dominate and bully.

I am absolutely NOT, emphatically, ever, putting up with appalling, coercive, abusive bullying male bullshit about 'my lady dick will have a different mouthfeel to men dicks and I won't accept your 'no' because you haven't tried it yet' (JHC if I had a pound for every prat in a bar who's said you're not lesbian darlin' you just haven't been had by me yet), and about lesbians 'learning to cope' with PIV sex with men - fuck OFF with that, it's incel and vile abuse. Women have a right to enjoy sex and to expect more than 'learning to cope' from a partner who is basically telling them they feel entitled to free sex work.

I am absolutely NOT putting up with coercive bullying about Pride and all the rest of it being open only to lesbians who will claim convincingly that they would absolutely shag men who identified as lesbians because they're good girls, and lesbian is a mixed sex term. And actually homosexual women not being welcome for being homosexual because that threatens a man's ego.

Just fuck all that.

The law works for me. There is now a legal right to go and be lesbian in peace - it's going to take some expensive court cases, the homophobia and male entitlement and the society belief that Men Have Needs and women don't really have a right to refuse sex to a man who wants it is going to take time to stamp out, but I am FINE with people doing whatever the fuck they want if they leave lesbian women alone to do their own thing too.

That's it. That's all. Just leave homosexual people the fuck alone. It is not difficult.

Ooh maybe the elves will turn up.

Like that bit.

Fantastic post

JKR on a horse with a beard?

Perhaps the scolders can tell us why men have always displayed so much interest in lesbianism when it's the only sexuality that doesn't involve them at all. I would be very interested to know that, and as they're proponents of men in lesbian spaces, I'm sure they can tell us.

(Asexuality doesn't count.)

baggsie legless

Haven't RTFT, so apologies, but I haven't got the time (walkies time, nagging dogs).

I think they do it for a range of reasons:

1. Virture signalling
2. Because they genuinely think we're a bunch of bigots
3. They're men who like telling women off
4. they're men who like being in women's spaces
5. They're men who like having their arses handed to them
6. They feel a duty to educate the unenlightened
7. They are the spike-sitting kind like Blackadder's relations and coming here gives them a multi-part whammy of trying to convert the heathen/ a chance to scold women/ viture signal AND sit on a spike, all at once.

Some of them are so incredibly self-obsessed and blinkered that they only succeed in making me MORE determined to argue against this bullshit, which is self-defeating on their part.

Some of them are funny. There was a dude the other week (it was so obviously a dude) who actually started crying "shame, shame" at us for wanting to get changed away from men. No irony. It was like a shit Game of Thrones character. It made my whole fucking day. I'm laughing again thinking about it. Shame! Shame!

I missed that one sadly!

In the case of a woman who came over from another site to berate me and invite me back to her lair for the scolding, I suspect it was the drink talking.

Some of the women I know who are strongly invested in gender belief are recovering anorexics, and also get scoldy about food and/or exercise.